• Rebuilding a totaled car is certainly not fraud. There are millions of cars on the road today that have been rebuilt. If you've never seen the inside of a rebuilder's shop, you ought to see what some of the cars look like when they start. They are truly "totaled," not just wrecked. You would be astounded at the amount of work some cars take to rebuild. They often take them right down to the frame and start over, even straightening the frame or replacing it. SOME, and only some of these cars will have a title branded rebuilt/restored. Most rebuilders will sell the car as a rebuilt car and not pass it off as original. But what happens in subsequent sales is "buyer beware," if the title is not branded.


    I can't imagine the incense people exhibit when they surely must realize that most collector cars have been restored... just a nicer word for rebuilt. Are you telling me you haven't seen some of the totally rusted out junk remains of valuable collector cars sold on ebay? What do you think rebuilder/restorers are going to do with those things? Restore and put them back on the road of course.


    An example I know the facts of is... an almost brand new Escalade was hit in the front and the frame badly damaged as well as the entire front end wiped out. The insurance company decided to rebuild the $50,000 car rather than total it. A new frame, motor and all front end parts were obtained from Cadillac. Everything else was stripped off the wrecked car and put on the new frame. Because the car was not totalled, it was not considered rebuilt, therefore the title was not branded. The owner got the car back and the insurance company paid the $25,000 or so bill. Is this materially any different than what is described about the Kar in question... no, I don't think so. And it certainly is not fraud.


    Let's take an extreme example. Suppose a guy has what's left of a Hemi Barracuda convertible that has practically nothing left but does have the title and data plate. Consider that a complete one may be worth say a million dollars. He buys a donor car and a scrounges up a whole lot of parts and as faithfully as possible rebuilds the car. Are you saying this is fraud? Wrong. It is in fact, a rebuilt Hemi Barracuda. Is it the same as or as valuable as an all original car? No, of course not. An honest seller would represent the car just as it is... restored... and the buyer would have the responsibility to determine just what the extent of that was and determine what the value to him is. What is this car worth? Who knows? The market place will determine that.


    Now where the fraud part could come in is if the seller, any seller who knows he is misrepresenting the car, represents to a buyer that the car is something it is not. If a seller stated to a buyer that the car was all original sheet metal, the odometer was the original low mileage, all matching numbers or it was a one-owner never wrecked car... that sort of thing... that's misrepresentation which is fraud... if you can prove it in court, which is difficult.


    I vote for taking the K inner fender and title, a donor Mustang... or a couple if necessary, scrounge up all the original K parts possible... hopefully a genuine K vin motor and trans and rebuild/restore the car.... exactly as proposed. And I see NOTHING wrong with it. That puts a rare and historically important K Mustang back on the road for someone to enjoy. In the sake of honesty the seller should document what is known about the car and pass it on to the buyer but there is no legal requirement to do that. Certainly the seller should not misrepresent the car and should answer all questions honestly to the best of his knowledge but again... no legal requirement to do so. And don't anyone bother to get upset about this because I guarantee you that there are probably a million (a few thousands more or less) collector cars with no more pedigree than this car would have. You might even own one.


    If a buyer wants an original K Mustang rather than a restored one then he should gain the knowledge to tell the difference... it's really quite easy to tell what's been done to a car... it's virtually impossible to rebuild a car to look as good as original.

    A person should take due diligence to determine just what the car is and is not and pay accordingly.

  • The fact of the matter is there is no clear cut definition of when a car can be defined as a "re-body" or rebuilt car. Everyone has their opinions on this, which everyone is entitled to. There are many concours cars that have won Gold awards that have probably had over 30-40% of the sheet metal replaced. I personally know one 64.5 convertible that had the following replaced: full floors, inner/outer rockers, inner/outer wheel housings, both quarters, tail light panel, 1 door, 2 fenders, hood, headlight buckets and valences. One could argue that the percentage of sheet metal replacement may warrant a "re-body".


    The biggest problem I have with a re-body is that the "donor shell" actually started out as a unique vehicle with a unique VIN stamped in it. By taking a K VIN stamp and all the parts and transferring them to a car with a pre-existing VIN is not restoration, not even close. The only reason to do such a thing has to do with monetary value/gain. You wouldn't transfer a T code coupe VIN to a V8 convertible unibody would you? Of course not, that would be absurd.


    Personally, I don't subscribe to the "putting back a historically significant car back on the road" train of thought to justify a complete unibody replacement. Once the original unibody is gone, that VIN is gone.


    I hate getting into discussions about re-body cars. There is never any good that comes from it. Either you're for it or against it. Generally most are against it because it's seen as an act of greed and deception. You can say all day long that it's ok "as long as the re-body work is disclosed", but somebody will end up getting burned, guaranteed.

  • "There is never any good that comes from it. Either you're for it or against it. Generally most are against it because it's seen as an act of greed and deception. You can say all day long that it's ok "as long as the re-body work is disclosed", but somebody will end up getting burned, guaranteed."


    AMEN.

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Personally, I don't subscribe to the "putting back a historically significant car back on the road" train of thought to justify a complete unibody replacement. Once the original unibody is gone, that VIN is gone.


    I hate getting into discussions about re-body cars. There is never any good that comes from it. Either you're for it or against it. Generally most are against it because it's seen as an act of greed and deception. You can say all day long that it's ok "as long as the re-body work is disclosed", but somebody will end up getting burned, guaranteed.

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    Well said.


    If a historical building were to burn down and the front door and one window were saved would it still be a legitimate piece of history if we re-built it?

  • Well put Charles. Unfortunately my kar fits into the extensive sheet metal replacement category as 20 years of storage in less than ideal conditions took its toll. I could have replaced less sheet metal (passenger side rear quarter was solid) but I had the pair of NOS quarters and decided to do it as we really needed to replace the wheel wells anyway. Floor pan replacement is a given for an Illinois car and the usual cowl panel leaks of course contributed to that.


    I will never condone a rebody (transfer of VIN to a better shell), however I have no problems with sheet metal replacement to restore an original shell. Restore/restomod the good shell, VIN transfer is not acceptable in my book.

  • In a perfect world, there would be no rebuilt/rebodied collector cars. When a car got old and collectible, it would be restored. But if the car was damaged beyond normal repair, it would go to the crusher and that would be the end of it. So every rare and valuable collector car would be an "honest" car bearing most of the original sheet metal at the very least with only worn out parts replaced. Collector car buyers would be assured that the car they were buying was genuine, not rebuilt/rebodied.


    But in the real world, as time goes on and restorable collector cars become more valuable and scarce, enthusiasts are going to resort to whatever means they can to put together a car. Actually, they have been doing that for many years. It's a fact that cars get wrecked, wear out and rust away. There is less and less to work with as time goes on.


    In the case of Mustangs, there is a big variance in the quantities and therefor the rarity and value of various models. A 1965 Mustang fastback is essentially all the same car but, depending on drive-train, options and modifications, became a T, C, A, K or Shelby. The Shelby is a K with bolt-on modifications. Many of these items were made available thru Ford dealers and owners put them on their own Mustangs. Because of rarity, desirability, how fast it goes, etc... the Shelby has become very expensive. The K is next in rarity and value followed by the A, C and T. There are probably several hundred thousand early Mustangs remaining in some condition. But only a few thousand Shelbys and K codes. Demand is greater than supply so prices continue to escalate. Most Mustangs have been greatly modified over the years so few genuine original cars exist.


    Now, out in your back-forty you have some old Mustang hulks. One of them is what's left of a badly damaged and rusted out K fastback. The rest are T, C or A code relics. You'd like to have a restored Mustang to cruise in... not a perfect show car but a nice car. The K code frame and sheet metal is mostly worse than some of the other cars. You could send what's left of the K code to the crusher and restore the best of what's left which happens to be a C code 289 which has a pretty decent body and is mostly complete needing some work but very restorable.


    OK, if you had to make the decision, would you forever destroy the K code? Or would you remove whatever you could from the K code and combine it with the donor car and turn it into the K code using the K vin stamped inner fenders and title to document it as a K? If you restore the car as a K it will be worth at least twice what it would be worth as a C and probably not cost appreciably more. If your restoration is reasonably faithful you will be putting a rare, collectible K code back on the street. If you restore the car as a C code... who cares? There are thousands of them.


    It really doesn't matter what you or I would do because plenty of these decisions have already been made by other folks and many more will be made and there will be at least a few more rebodied K codes and Shelbys returned to the road.


    Personally, I don't care what other people decide to do with their cars... restore, rebuild, rebody... whatever... it's their car. I would prefer to buy an "honest" car though, as I'm sure most people would. But the rebodied car also has a market and a value. If the price is right, a rebodied car can make someone a good looking K code driver. Most likely it would never be a show car and that's as it should be. So what's the problem? That someone, not knowing better, would pay too much for what the car is worth? Is that really possible or likely? A person pays what he thinks the car is worth and probably won't pay more than the car could be resold for a couple of years later considering that the value of K codes should continue to rise. I have a hard time understanding what the harm is here? So there are a few more Shelbys and K codes on the road and they aren't totally original or even mostly original... so what? There are already tons of them, I see them at every car show identified as "Hipo" or "Shelby" and they might resemble a K code or Shelby but they never will be. Anyone interested in buying an original K code or Shelby would get educated enough to know they what they are buying. Most people would not intentionally misrepresent or try to defraud anyone anyway.


    Edited by - LuvKcodes on 05/10/2007 16:58:43

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    In a perfect world, there would be no rebuilt/rebodied collector cars. .......... Anyone interested in buying an original K code or Shelby would get educated enough to know they what they are buying. Most people would not intentionally misrepresent or try to defraud anyone anyway.

    Edited by - LuvKcodes on 05/10/2007 16:58:43

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    sometimes the educational process is pretty expensive... or as they say, live, and learn


    Z. Ray

    "66 GT-350

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>OK, if you had to make the decision, would you forever destroy the K code? Or would you remove whatever you could from the K code and combine it with the donor car and turn it into the K code using the K vin stamped inner fenders and title to document it as a K? If you restore the car as a K it will be worth at least twice what it would be worth as a C and probably not cost appreciably more. If your restoration is reasonably faithful you will be putting a rare, collectible K code back on the street. If you restore the car as a C code... who cares? There are thousands of them. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    The end experience can still be achieved by simply transferring all the parts to another car. It is unnecessary to change the VIN. When you close the hood you can't see the VIN anyway!

    <img src=images/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    ........ Or would you remove whatever you could from the K code and combine it with the donor car and turn it into the K code using the K vin stamped inner fenders and title to document it as a K.......

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    so you can make a silk purse out of a sows ear after all.


    No one is going to change camps on this issue. you either think you can turn s**it into shinola with only a title and VIN stamping to start with, or you are in the other camp, once a shell is toast, it's history. But it is entertaining to see all the different ways of expressing the the basic two opposing views.


    Z. Ray

    '66 GT-350

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    I hate getting into discussions about re-body cars. There is never any good that comes from it. Either you're for it or against it. Generally most are against it because it's seen as an act of greed and deception. You can say all day long that it's ok "as long as the re-body work is disclosed", but somebody will end up getting burned, guaranteed.

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    This thread has really taken off with lots of hits and some well written replies. It's very interesting to read all the comments...So far, it seems the popular opinion is that it's not acceptable to re-body a K code Mustang. [Blocked Image: http://www.carveraudio.com/phpBB2/images/smiles/eusa_naughty.gif]

  • i like the suggestion made by 41gpaws to Brett1970 "post the k vin number so we are all aware of which car it is and a record can be made in the next registry." Brett1970 wrote "If i used the K title on this car and i DID sell it, i would not hesitate to tell the prospective buyer EXACTLY what the car was"

    good intention stated but i notice he chose not to post the cars VIN. the increased value of a car said to be a K code is too tempting for many. i fully agree that a rebodied car will be misrepresented by a seller somewhere down the line, for that reason i'm against it being done.

  • Actually, i didn't post the VIN for the same reason that people who sell cars on ebay don't. Because they can be used to obtain a title through other means. Hence, you see "XXXX" as the last 4 Vin digits. I've decided to go ahead and build the car as a K and i'll be using 95% original ford K parts. If and when i do sell the car, i'll gladly disclose the history of the car, along with pictures of the total restoration. If i sell the car, and the next person decides to be dishonest, it's out of my hands. I'm sure there are cars out there that are or will be built the exact same way. and the Dynacorn comment, yes the dynacorn cars have a serial number, but it varies from state to state as far as title. Some states you can title the car as a 67/68 mustang, other states you must use your original mustang vin, the body is considered a replacement part, and can be used as such. Read the hotrod magazine artice on replacement bodies.

  • But you are NOT using a "replacement" body, you are using a 65/66 fastback that started out with a specific VIN from Ford Motor Company which you plan to cut out and replace with a K VIN.


    You obviously are doing this for personal profit since you mention disclosing it to a prospective buyer.


    With the cost of parts these days, you could probably do better selling all the K parts separately. You sure you want a fake K code on your conscience? Honestly, why bother?


    Dynacorn bodies will be extremely easy to spot. It's not like they are duplicating date codes and every alignment notch for the sheet metal components. Besides, the target market for these is the eleanor crowd anyway. You won't see someone paying $14k for a bare unibody to do a concours restoration.

  • Since i seem to iritate the grouchy old men on this board so much, i guess i'll rub it in a little. I also have a K convertible title and tag as well. let the flames begin!!

  • well, i would gladly consider it. That peticular car was in Arizona, and i beleive was reserve not met. I did look on thier website, they are asking 14,500 for bare shell. If i DO build this car it is not for profit. I am building a car for profit currently, a 67 eleanor car. I also have my 95 GT for sale. As i stated many times, i just want a 65/66 daily driver for the summer months. I also have limited space at my house to store more than 3 cars. It'll be next year before i do anything with it anyways.

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    Since i seem to iritate the grouchy old men on this board so much, i guess i'll rub it in a little. I also have a K convertible title and tag as well. let the flames begin!!

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    you belong to the 1% of this hobby that makes it a pain for the other 99%. What goes around, comes around.


    Good "luck" in your endevors.


    Z. Ray

    '66 GT-350

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    i just want a 65/66 daily driver for the summer months. I also have limited space at my house to store more than 3 cars. It'll be next year before i do anything with it anyways.

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    The fastback shell you're starting out with already has a Ford VIN. But you say you don't have a title for it?


    Why not go through a title company and get a new title for the car? If you can't do that, why not get your state to issue a new VIN for your car along with a new title.


    If you're not in it for profit, it won't matter what the VIN under the hood is.

  • Back in the early seventies in the state of ILLINIOS I worked for a Body Shop . The shop bought wrecked cars from a auction. We would take two cars and cut the bodys apart and put the two good halfs and put them together. They where sold to everyone or back at the auction. This created a problem? Most of the cars we did was PERFORMANCE CARS! The thief rate went way up. So the insurance companys lobbyed for new laws. All vehicles now had a salvage title. And the only way to change the title was to have the state inspect the vehicle after it was rebuilt with ALL paper work present before it got a clear title from the state. It also came with a STATE OF ILLINIOS Tag put on the car by the State OF ILL. Police. You had to prove that ALL the parts of the car was legal not stollen. You can not put a car with a salvage title on the road in ILLINIOS! You can still have a car restored if it is at least 25 years old with out any problems. But the only shops doing this are doing major restoration on these cars and exceeds the value of the vehicle. They are being restored far better than original at a BIG PRICE! So to have a K Fastback restored by these shops would cost around $100,000 plus to restore. Its the little shops/do it your self shops you have to watch. Most TOP NOTCH SHOPS document there cars very good. Thats how that get paid. If its not documented do not buy it. I myself believe that if a car is restored /rebuilt with lots of care and documenting everything you have done its ok. But you must desclose it! ITS NOT ORIGINAL! Good luck finding an original K.Do your homework before buying. Ron


    Edited by - MR.FORD49 on 05/16/2007 07:47:06

  • To me Brett comes across as a true lover of classics with a passion and skill for restoring them. At the end of the day, it's his car, his title and as long as it's not illegal he can do what he wants. Brett has offered full discloser and to post vin on our site. After all isn't that one of the reasons this site exists, to check history of K's on the registry that come up for sale? Please, let's not scare people like Brett off as this will result in a K coming on the market one day which we know nothing about.


    Cheers, Tony

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