• Well, i'm new here as a poster, and wanted a little feedback on my project. I purchased a 65/66 fastback body, in so so condition. firewall forward is extremely nice, the back half of the car is pretty rough. Someone started to cut around the rear framerails, and stopped. Here's the real deal with the car, the guy i purchased it from is a lifelong mustang restorer, and he scrapped a totalled K fastback years ago, it was destroyed beyond repair. He saved the inner fender apron with the 66 K vin, and the title.


    I purchased the car, and the correct 9" K rear end housing, and it came with a set of rear frame rails cut from a parts car that are real nice. I have another friend who was been in the mustang business for 30 years, and has 2 K code engines. Consider them correct as far as internals, blocks, and heads. He also has the correct accesories as well, alternator with correct pulley, correct fan, etc.


    I guess the question is, could it be considered a real K code car with the Vin added, new door tag stamped, and all the correct parts on it? The fastback does not have the reinforcement in the rear seat riser for dual exhaust hangers, but all that sheet metal really needs replaced anyways. I can buy an original set of reenforcements, that were cut from a true dual exhaust car.


    Overall, it does need a lot of work, but parts are available. I can purchase the K motor for 2000.00 and probaby a couple hundred for the other correct parts. I may be motivated to sell the fastback with vin section and title, and pass the info for the k parts along with it to the buyer if the price is right. Car is located in northwest ohio. Appreciate any comments, thoughts, good bad or otherwise. Thanks, Brett

  • many states consider what you describe as fraud.


    Let us know what your state Dept of Motor Vehicles says about your plan.


    Z. Ray

    '66 GT-350


    Edited by - zrayrichter on 05/07/2007 21:23:34

  • Actually it's no different than replacing the entire body of a 67 - 68 fastback with a Dynacorn mustang shell. there is no "fraud" involved. The original K car is long gone and scrapped. I have a fastback with no title, so i use the fender apron and title to "replace" the K body. I have stated clearly what i am offering and not misrepresent said car, so there is no "fraud"

  • DYNACORN bodies come with a DYNACORN VIN - NOT A FoMoCo VIN - so this is NOT the same thing. They are sold as "NEW" bodies and must be registered and tagged as such - using the DYNACORN VIN - NOT an original Ford VIN. Plus, I've read that the Dynacorn bodies will have additional VIN stamp locations verses an original Ford body.


    It will be ILLEGAL to modify the DYNACORN VIN just like it is ILLEGAL to modify an original FoMoCo VIN.


    What you are suggesting is FRAUD - check with ANY COP or DMV. You can go to JAIL for this.


    You are taking an existing car VIN and replacing it with one that no longer exists - to increase it's value or rarity. THIS IS FRAUD.


    I wonder WHY this doesn't sound WRONG to you.


    Vehicle VIN manipulation is a serious crime.


    I think I speak for most if not ALL of the folks here at the HiPo site that what you are suggesting is WRONG and illegal. Just ask a few of the members who have purchased "re-bodied" cars - I think you will be surprised by their reaction to what you are suggesting.

  • VIN manipulation would be changing the C in a VIN to a K and is not the same and merging two cars and using the VIN of the more desirable/valuable car. Creating a VIN that never existed before is most certainly illegal but taking a legitimate VIN and placing on a donor body is not always so clear cut. The legality of doing so probably varies by state and whether or not the rebody is disclosed. When inquiring to a state about the legality, make sure they understand the difference of what was done.


    A previous discussion on this topic prompted me to inquire to a neighbor who's a Texas state trooper about it. After doing some research, he said altering a car’s VIN is illegal but replacing a VIN is not. He stated salvage companies and body shops do this all time because so many late-model cars have VIN-stamped parts. He said there’s a paperwork trail involved when using used VIN stamped parts during repairs and he also stated if a certain percentage of VIN stamped parts are changed, the title status SHOULD change to salvage. He said these guidelines only apply VIN stamped parts and licensed shops.


    He said since older cars don’t have VIN stamps on the major parts, there’s no prohibition about using used parts (including the majority of the body) to rebuild another car and no restriction saying that a greater percentage of a car dictates which VIN should be used.


    He said his opinion was that if a car were to be rebodied, a salvage title would probably be the most appropriate to ensure the extent of the repairs are disclosed but the laws did not clearly address this.

  • whether it's a re-bodied K code or Shelby or anything else, the temptation for misrepresentation will exist. If not by the person doing the rebody, then on down the line.


    At the very least, the title should be changed to indicate salvage, to protect future owners from being swindled.


    As mentioned, states have different "views" of this undertaking. This might be quasi-legal in TX but not in Ohio


    Personally, I think all rebodied cars should be given salvage titles, with a salvage serial number, as they are not either car used to make them up, and should not have the serial number of either car, nor the value it confers.


    Using the serial number from the more valuble of the donor cars is fraud in my book. Just plain wrong. Like stealing.


    Z. Ray

    '66 GT-350

  • If this is considered fraud does one consider it the same thing to stamp your VIN in your engine block? Page 6 of the 289 HIPO book 2nd edition calls this a restoration not a forgery.


    Thoughts/

  • I have an idea Brett, just post the k vin number so we are all aware of which car it is and a record can be made in the next registry. I am sure you may have no bad intentions but the next owner might try to pass it as an original body car. Just a thought.

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    I have an idea Brett, just post the k vin number so we are all aware of which car it is and a record can be made in the next registry. I am sure you may have no bad intentions but the next owner might try to pass it as an original body car. Just a thought.

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    if the title has a salvage designation and savage serial number the history of a car would be revealed prior to a sale. Listing info in a registry is more hit and miss.


    Z. Ray

    '66 GT-350

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    If this is considered fraud does one consider it the same thing to stamp your VIN in your engine block? Page 6 of the 289 HIPO book 2nd edition calls this a restoration not a forgery.


    Thoughts/

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    Regardless of the Hi-Po books statement, owner stamped numbers on a block is a misleading practice IMHO. If the date codes are close, what is to prevent the owner from then claiming the block is original ? Thusly making the car worth more ?


    Z. Ray

    '66 GT-350

  • If the painting of Mona Lisa is destroyed, but the frame still exists, can you do a repaint of the Mona Lisa, install it in the original frame, then sell it to investors as the original painting itself?

  • Did you honestly think someone here would say, "yeah that's fine" ??

    LOL


    Seriously, the way I see it, if you are only moving the vin, yeah that is a little hardcore. No original K code parts from the car that wore the vin. that's just a little wierd I guess and "feels" wrong although I guess technically it's not especially if you dont plan to sell it.


    But I myself certainly do not agree with some of the statements I have read in this thread either. I feel like if you have an original K code mustang and it needed frame rails, floors and several other parts you had to replace anyway, what is the difference in using another mustang you also own. Hell, I have read so many posts (even here) that mustang restorers, especially K codes, factory GT's etc say explicitly you should buy a solid coupe for all your parts in your restoration....parts as in doors, deck lids, etc. so how is the floor and frame (aka body stuff) any different? im my opinion its not. but thats just my opinion. I have even seen in the hipo book some cars say "possible rebody"..come on, that means it was rebodied. And it is cool people took the high road and surrendered that info.


    As long as you are able to use the majority of the original parts from the original car and you explicitly state what the car has undergone and it is not original any longer it is no different, unless you are doing all this just to sell it. just my 2cents.. Racool's post seemed to make the most sense to me.

  • well, by no means did i mean to rile everyone up. I bought the car, and it came with a K title and Apron number cut from a totaled K. From what i was told, the original K car came to him totally destroyed and stripped of drivetrain. He saved what few salvageable parts that were there, including the Vin from the apron. This is the ONLY 65-66 vin + title he can give me with the car. I just want to build a daily driver 65 - 66 fastback, and it seemed a waste to use this title on this car. I know PLENTY of places that save tags and titles to cars rotted into the ground.. because sooner or later, they pick up a nice shell, and it has no title. So, they use the title they do have so they can plate and drive the car when it's restored.


    If i used the K title on this car and i DID sell it, i would not hesitate to tell the prospective buyer EXACTLY what the car was. How many Shelby clone GT350's are there? most people could care less it's not a real shelby, cause when it's driving by people, they don't have a clue it's not real either. THey may assume it's not real if they know anything about mustangs. i'm done posting on this board, C-ya


    Edited by - brett1970 on 05/08/2007 20:25:31

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    Did you honestly think someone here would say, "yeah that's fine" ??

    LOL


    Seriously, the way I see it, if you are only moving the vin, yeah that is a little hardcore. No original K code parts from the car that wore the vin. that's just a little wierd I guess and "feels" wrong although I guess technically it's not especially if you dont plan to sell it.


    But I myself certainly do not agree with some of the statements I have read in this thread either. I feel like if you have an original K code mustang and it needed frame rails, floors and several other parts you had to replace anyway, what is the difference in using another mustang you also own. Hell, I have read so many posts (even here) that mustang restorers, especially K codes, factory GT's etc say explicitly you should buy a solid coupe for all your parts in your restoration....parts as in doors, deck lids, etc. so how is the floor and frame (aka body stuff) any different? im my opinion its not. but thats just my opinion. I have even seen in the hipo book some cars say "possible rebody"..come on, that means it was rebodied. And it is cool people took the high road and surrendered that info.


    As long as you are able to use the majority of the original parts from the original car and you explicitly state what the car has undergone and it is not original any longer it is no different, unless you are doing all this just to sell it. just my 2cents.. Racool's post seemed to make the most sense to me.

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    Re-reading my posts, I can see where they might look a little extreme. I've been screwed by the re-body thing once & the experience has hardened my feeling about the subject, Doing major rust repairs is one thing, nothing wrong with that, & I didn't mean to infer that there was. But when all you've got is a title and vin plate or stamping, and hope to turn that into a car, somebody is going to get the shaft on the deal, sooner or later.


    Z. Ray

    '66 GT-350

  • I would say he didn't like our responses - but maybe he had already come to the same conclusion - just didn't like hearing it from others.


    I re-read my post and it was agressive - intentionally so - I've had a real K - with original drive line since 1979 - and I value the car almost as much as my life and anyone "faking" or swapping K VINs potentially LOWERS the value of my car - I grew up with this car and now I'm sinking big money into it to bring it back to life - the right way - restoring what I have - NOT swapping all the pieces onto another rust free 2+2 to save time and money.


    I've never been burned by a VIN swap, but know someone who has.


    I also had a rather unpleasent incident witha Georgia "Resto" Car Dealer selling a potential "rebody K" - when I brought it to his attention he threatened legal action.


    I kringe EVERY time I see this done or hear of someone suggesting a "VIN SWAP" - to me it is just wrong - regardless of the intention or purpose someone always seems to get burned in the end. The laws maybe a little vague on this issue state to state, but I think this was the intent of the "SALVAGE" titles most states use now. The fact that the original Mustang guy saved the VIN and title - without getting it labeled "SALVAGE" - which is what it was - started this whole thing - why save it if it wasn't "WORTH SOMETHING"??? This is why the whole thing smells bad to me - making something worth "MORE" out of something it is not.

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    If this is considered fraud does one consider it the same thing to stamp your VIN in your engine block? Page 6 of the 289 HIPO book 2nd edition calls this a restoration not a forgery.


    Thoughts/

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    I believe if you read the statement made in the HIPO book 4th edition the stamping of the VIN on the block was in fact restamping a faded VIN. That's what was meant by restoration. To stamp your engine block with a VIN if it wasn't there is fraud. I wouuld be very suprised if Tony was advocating this.


    Regards,


    René

  • If all that is wanted is a 65/66 Fastback, why not put all the parts into a A, C or even T code shell. All the parts would still be there and no one would know the difference. Seems odd to add in the K VIN. What other purpose would this serve?


    Personally if I came across the car and was told it had the VIN put on the new body, I wouldn't contemplate buying the car, no matter how stunning it looked. At the end of the day this car at some stage would be abused by someone and someone else would feel like thay've been screwed.


    Regards,


    René

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    If this is considered fraud does one consider it the same thing to stamp your VIN in your engine block? Page 6 of the 289 HIPO book 2nd edition calls this a restoration not a forgery.


    Thoughts/

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    I believe if you read the statement made in the HIPO book 4th edition the stamping of the VIN on the block was in fact restamping a faded VIN. That's what was meant by restoration. To stamp your engine block with a VIN if it wasn't there is fraud. I wouuld be very suprised if Tony was advocating this.


    Regards,


    René

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>


    I guess I need to get the forth edition, the second states and I quote, "If your HP block is damaged, a standard black that bears the same one of the above casting numbers can be converted to a Hi-Po. Use the HP main bearing caps and have it line bored. There is no difference, however, if our car originally had a VIN stamped block you will have to reproduce the stamping. This is not forgery, this is restoration."


    Clearly the comment is not regarding a faded VIN number nor am I suggesting it is a good thing to do, only pointing out there is or has been gray areas when it comes to these items.


    Oh and the comment on the Mona Lisa and the frame was funny.

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