K rebody??

I would have to guess that most of you guys on this site have NOT watched Barret Jackson Auctions? The cars and trucks that have been cloned and vin's changed are documented and still bring great big money because its a HIGH PERFORMANCE car. People want them at any cost. And believe me alot of them have been totaly or partly rebodied. The buyers don't care. Its funny that so few make a big deal of it when Carrol Shelby himself signed a rebodied Shelby at the auction for a NEW owner! And he has signed many other cars and parts. And if for second you think SAAC Shelby people is stopping anyone from reboding a Shelby your heart may stop at anytime. Instead of trying to ban the practice lets set guide lines to track this practice. I think we should stamp next to the vin numbers RB with a date. You will never stop it so lets help control it. The guys doing it for profit are the Classic Car Dealers using small shops. Like making a GT out of a early 1965 Fastback K car and claiming its original. Just my 2 cents and we need to stop hammering people when they come to this site for help and questions! Thanks ! Ron

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.......... Just my 2 cents and we need to stop hammering people when they come to this site for help and questions! Thanks ! Ron

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helping a re-body (scam) artist would be like passing out keys to your home at a burglars convention. just my 2 cents.

Z. Ray

'66 GT-350

I agree with Tony. I felt like you were being treated a bit harshly for being honest and making an honest attempt to ask a perfectly valid question. This is certainly the place where the most knowledge exists on hipo mustangs. Its a wonderful resource.

It's the guys that are being tricky and out to make a quick buck on a scam that chap me. You do not sound like that type. And again, in my opinion you ARE restoring that K code mustang best you can, so a rebody is nothing different than a million other guys have done that love vintage cars and the original shell was done for. Good luck to you and thanks for being honest and having it listed as a "rebody"

Thanks for agreeing to publish the VIN. That's a good move on your part. The car you are going to build sounds awesome! Should be a very fun car and a cool conversation piece when people see it.

Troy

Brett, good luck with you're project. Although, if it was me, I'd be setting aside the Selby bits for a future Selby Clone project. Just build up the Re-Bodied K as Ford would have sold it.

Just my Opinion. Tony

Very good post. Maybe some guys are unaware that a resto-mod car, which is in most cases just a nicer word for rebody, can and often does sell for FAR more than a nicely restored to original Mustang... even a K code. These car builders really don't care what the VIN on the car is although a K might be valued over a C, for example.

I'm not a resto-mod kind of car guy. I'm an original car lover... the more original and untouched the better. My next priority is a car nicely restored to original. It doesn't necessarily have to be 100 percent authentically restored... just within reason.

Carroll Shelby signs anything for a donation to his charity. He's getting the money for the charity in return for his signature... he's not authenticating anything by signing it.

There are already SOOO many rebuilt, rebodied, resto-mod cars out there that it can't be stopped. It's the direction of the car hobby since the high dollar value cars cannot be touched by the average enthusiast. A guy can build a more-or-less Shelby look-alike in his garage, with many more modifications than were available to Shelby at the time, for a fraction of the cost of an authentic Shelby. Does anyone think there is a problem with this? I don't think so. So there is no problem with building a K code by doing a rebody either.

Surely we all realize that anyone with any expertise at all can determine for the most part just what is original about a car and what isn't. From there, each individual will have to decide what a car is worth to him. One guy has to have the totally original, faithfully restored K code. Another guy will be happy with a rebodied Kar for less money. So what's the problem. It happens and it's going to keep on happening.

I agree that since we have no control or right to tell a person how to restore, rebody or resto-mod his car... we might as well just accept it. Many of us will reject cars that do not meet our standards and consider them not worthy of being a real K code Mustang. That's fine and as it should be. A K code IS a K code... it's not anything else no matter how you mix it up. But there has to be a place for the rest... they are valued and valuable and they are what they are.

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I would have to guess that most of you guys on this site have NOT watched Barret Jackson Auctions?

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Thanks for the quote! I was not saying the Carrol Shelby was saying that he excepts any cars as originals. But he does except them for what they are REBUILT or RESTORED vehicles custom or built to original specs. I believe a few years ago Carrol Shelby himself had left over titles and or vin numbers for 10 1966 Mustang convertables and was going to build them with new drivelines and sell them. I don't know if he ever finished the cars. Some one on this site may remeber better about the whole deal he was going thru with Ford. I do agree if you are going to build a car with a K vin you should put it together as close to original as possible for that vin number. Things we can NOT from stopping is TAXES and RUST!!! I know of three 1967 Shelby Mustang 500 cars that have been rebodied because the rust left nothing to use of the body. The cars where done by the best restores in the business. Ever detail was put into these cars. They where probly better than original. The cars all came off the same assembly line. How many of you have had to replace the rear frame rails and used after market units? Or installed new floor pans? Or any other body part or drive line part? YOUR CAR IS NOT ORIGINAL even using NOS PARTS!!!!! Or if you painted your car! So we need to get off the bad wagon and keep it FUN! Just my 2 cents!

I agree that it is wrong to misrepresent a car that is so far gone that it cannot be revived. It is completely unethical to take a Dynacorn body and put a tag on it and call it a Mustang. But, how many guys out there have replaced a fender,door,hood,quarter panels,floor pan, frame rails and on and on and on? I believe in keeping these classics on the road. I know that there are so many Mustangs on the road or not that have replacement parts. Be it fenders,doors, carpet, bolts, etc. and it remains a Mustang because the owners love their cars and they want to keep them in top shape. What about the restorations on Shelbys and the R-Code Shelbys that were hammered and wrecked ? These cars were repaired back in the race days. What does a repair entail ? Sometimes what you may call a rebody or a restoration just to keep these cars on the road. Now, is this wrong ? Each individual must decide why he or she drives a Mustang or Shelby. Some people do not drive their cars because they are only for show. I drive my cars because I like to drive and feel the road under my tires and hear the roar of an engine at high RPM's. In order to continue to drive a car, especially a Mustang, repairs become necessary. You can call it what you will, but, any kind of replacement is not original and that's that! So, let's not fool ourselves into thinking mine is better than yours because mine is 100% original or slightly less. Once the tires are gone they're replaced and the paint fades or gets nicked and you have to repaint or do a touch-up. Come on guys, once any change is made the car is not factory original. So, let's get back to why we got into Mustangs in the first place. I myself think they are the greatest car on the road, Ilove them ! I have cars because I like to drive. If it is your intention to deceive then you are going to do just that. A thief or liar is not going to tell you his wants or needs he is self serving and that is all. This discussion is not about what's right or wrong it's a matter of semantics !

(resto)modifying a kar does not make it a rebody. repairing a kar does not make it a rebody. equating a new water pump (repair) or changing the paint, changing to dics brakes or rack and pinion (modify) to cutting the VIN out of a car so it can be replaced with the vin from a kar that no longer exists is ludicrous.

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(resto)modifying a kar does not make it a rebody. repairing a kar does not make it a rebody. equating a new water pump (repair) or changing the paint, changing to dics brakes or rack and pinion (modify) to cutting the VIN out of a car so it can be replaced with the vin from a kar that no longer exists is ludicrous.

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exactly. And publishing the VIN in question doesn't make it right either. If all you have is a title & a VIN cut out of an inner fender you could frame them & hang it on your wall. You'd have a real nice conversation piece without all the bother of fabricating an air car.

Z. Ray

The seller of a rebody may be upfront to his buyer with the rebody issue but somewhere down the road, someone is likely to get stung.

Also re-vinning date correct blocks is not about restoration at all! It's about deception and nothing else! If your going to put a non original date coded engine in your K then leave out the VIN. Put it this way, would you be OK with finding out your block isn't original even though you paid top dollar for it. As we all know, a regular 289's and K 289's use the exact same C5 block but different main caps. If the blocks are the same, then why do sellers ask $200 for the A block but want $800 -up for a non #'s matching VINned block with the K caps missing? Because they are original K. The same thing goes for the car, too.

Edited by - 1966KGT on 07/14/2007 15:01:11

To be quite blunt, I think this wive's tale that people use advertised VIN's to create new ones is pure B.S. If someone wanted a K VIN then all they have to do is get a copy of the K registry.

There are way too many fake "k" cars, Chevelle SS, Hemi or what have you running around. Talking to the older folks, there are more SS Chevelles around now then there were in the late sixties or early seventies. Some people are fine doing a re-body and others seem to be fine owning a re-body as long as no one is the wiser. This is why documentation is so important when buying a "collectable" car. I don't mind paying the money for the real thing, but finding out later that what I bought wasn't genie would be heart breaking. But, buyer beware. Just take a look on Ebay at any Mustang being sold. Often, mistakes in the descriptions are made honestly. The word "hipo" is thrown around too often.

Been reading this forum for a while, just registered, This is my first post.<img src=images/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle> I've had 1st hand experience in this matter (I had a vehicle stolen,and recovered with a different VIN). It is Federally Illegal to tamper with the official VIN of a vehicle (on a mustang, the official vin is the dash numbers on a later car, I'm fairly certain they are the stamped in apron numbers on an earlier car) So.... A federal law was broken when the numbers were removed from the original car, and would be again when you replaced your old VIN with the K serial number. State Police in most states are quick to seize vehicles when they suspect VIN tampering (that's how I got mine back)

I borrowed This from the boss302 site:

18 USCS § 2321

TITLE 18. CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I. CRIMES

CHAPTER 113. STOLEN PROPERTY

18 USCS § 2321 (2003)

§ 2321. Trafficking in certain motor vehicles or motor vehicle parts

(a) Whoever buys, receives, possesses, or obtains control of, with intent to sell or otherwise dispose of, a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part, knowing that an identification number for such motor vehicle or part has been removed, obliterated, tampered with, or altered, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.

107 A.L.R.5th 567

SUMMARY: Illegally removing or altering a vehicle identification number (VIN) or selling or possessing a motor vehicle or motor vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN constitutes a crime in most states. In order to impose liability, state courts normally require a culpable mental state on the part of the defendant in altering or removing a VIN or in possessing a vehicle or vehicle part with an altered or removed VIN. Some states, however, do not require any culpable mental state on the part of the defendant when selling a vehicle or vehicle part with a removed or altered VIN.

They have a good section on there sight addressing this Go to http://www.boss302.com and click on the "Vin Legalities" section.

Dynacorn bodies are issued a unique serial number and most states title them as kit cars, it would be illegal to do anything else with them (except cut them up and use them for parts to restore an exzisting body) Many states are passing laws that are making "back halfing" cars unregisterable (addressing the previous post about repairing new cars)

This topic has been addressed in alot of the other collector car forums (generally every time someone posts a VIN and title on Ebay)

I'd hate to see someone go to alot of effort to restore a car ( even if the had no ill intent) the run afoul of the law and have there car impounded or worse.

Now, on a happier note, This is a great site, keep up the good work!, ( don't own a "K" car yet, just an engine ..... ) John

Interesting thread but just because the run down condition of a particular vehicle is obvious and known at any given point in time does not mean future buyers will be aware of its past. Case in point.

A 1965 GT350 was advertised 30 years ago as needing a complete restoration. A nationally known dealer in such cars had it for sale. Several people associated with national organizations, i.e. members, of like the Mustang Club of America and the Shelby American Automobile Club (SAAC) went to examine the car with intent to purchase. I went in a group of three potential buyers myself. What we went to see was an extremely rusty chassis. It was so rusty there was no trunk floor, no metal brake lines but red flakes, and the front and rear glasses had fallen into what was left of the cockpit. The front left quarter (literally center of dash and console and under driver’s seat) of the car was from an original red Mustang and just slightly less rusty. The car had been sitting in the open stripped of most parts open for years up north (don’t remember where anymore). When we examined the car and its paper work it had these salvageable parts remaining (1) the aluminum Shelby American VIN plate and (2) an all fiberglass hood. The chassis was clearly once a proud GT350. The old papers with the car appeared to be legitimate. There was nothing else left repairable in the norms of the time. (It had a very poor condition engine block and the remains of the steering wheel for example. The few items remaining would be even in today’s world tough to justify trying to repair.) There wasn’t much left of the front chassis below the upper control arm mounting holes. A complete description of what we saw was sent to SAAC.

Fast forward about ten years. I saw “the car” at a SAAC event in the concours. Well actually what I saw was the original VIN plate on a late (based on dates codes and features) 1966 Mustang fastback. I was asked to be a judge for the concours. I pointed out this car to the event organizers and they just shrugged “so what” style.

Fast forward to last year. The original never been damaged just restored to the finest standards car sold at auction for over $300,000. One SAAC member testified how it was such a pristine original 1965 chassis that he saw during the restoration process. This “car” has been replaced with other Mustangs two and a quarter times. Talk about identity crisis.

Quite a few people went and looked at that car three decades ago and it was pretty well known there was nothing left to salvage but the VIN plate and a hood. Today it is a high dollar never been damaged “original”.

Think what you want but to me that car is a replica at best and somebody paid over $300,000 for a car that ended its existence around 30 years ago. And there are people that don’t believe in reincarnation.

Edited by - rr64 on 08/11/2007 05:30:17

This is an interesting story Dan. Did SAAC ever report this cars history in the Registry and why is this car still out there after all these years as a fake?

Monty

K's are not the only rebody candidates... check this out :

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=200139837098&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=010</p><p><br></p><p>

I still don't understand how this can be legal. Over here, there is no way anything like this could happen.