R model moter info.

I am sure the Shelby guys on this site will have more to add, but the heads were prepared by VALLEY HEAD SERVICE and the best were used on the R cars, I believe. Anyone else??

Magazine articles (mostly Hot Rod and Car Craft) in the 1964-65 time period and a book detail Cobra race preparation back then showed detailed part by part modifications or described them for Cobra and later GT350 race engines. Major details

- welded up "banana" water ports on heads and plugged water holes under them in the block decks

- ported and polished heads

- pistons machined for larger valves

- ported intake manifold

- steel shim head gaskets

- grooved crankshaft mains (some engines)

- DeVeves (spelling ??) piston ring

- threaded plugs in the rest of the lifter oil galleries

- steel competition oil pans custom made from stock pans, originally done in SAI race shop, late cars stock aluminum GT350 pan, even later retail sales were contractor made

- custom anti-vibration gusset on oil pump pick up and custom bracket to one of the main cap bolts replaced with a special bolt, with drilled aircraft bolts and safety wire

- shimmed oil pump relief to increase pressure

- fully degreed harmonic balancer

- BF603 spark plugs

Nearly everthing else but the oil was stock Ford HP289 or GT350.

Going from memory so please correct me if I'm wrong, here are a few more changes done to at least some cars:

- Larger Holley 3255 carb, 780 cfm.

- R-Model intakes were not drilled for PCV vaccum fittings.

- Valve covers were standard steel units, each had a breather cap tube

- Electric fuel pumps

- Different camshaft?

There were some changes between the way cars were built (even the period of time they were built) and how they were run. Have some build up sheets for a "R model" engine build or two.

Here is a list from a 67 Trans Am Build - Should have the dyno sheets and another sheet showing plugs, gaps, timing, fuel and oil stuff also

ENGINE ASSEMBLY

Qty.....Part Number........Part Name

2.......C6FE-6049-A.......Cylinder Head

1.......C6FE-6083-B.......Cylinder Head Gasket LH

1.......C6FE-6083-B.......Cylinder Head Gasket RH

10......377531-S..........Bolt, Cyl Head - Short

10......377530-S..........Bolt, Cyl Head - Long

20......377426-S..........Washer 7/16 flat

8.......C6FE-6110-A.......Piston

8.......C6FE-6150-A.......Piston Ring - Top Compression

8.......C6FE-6152-A.......Piston Ring - 2nd Compression

8.......C6FE-6159-A.......Segment - Oil Control Ring

8.......C6FE-6161-A.......Spacer - Oil Control Ring

8.......C6FE-6200-A.......Rod, Connecting - Assembly

16......C6FE-62121-A&B....Bearing - Con-Rod

16......C6FE-62121-A......Bearing - Con-Rod (Selective Fit)

1.......S1CR-6250-2.......Camshaft

1.......C3OE-6256-B.......Sprocket - Camshaft

1.......376058-S..........Bolt - Cam Sprocket

1.......C3OE-6269-B.......Plate - Camshaft Thrust

2.......375932-S..........Screw - Cam Thrust Plate

1.......C3OE-6265-B.......Spacer - Cam Sprocket

1.......C6FE-6316-A.......Damper - Crank Vibration

4.......C5OE-6333-A-B.....Bearing - Main Upper

4.......C5OE-6333-A.......Bearing - Main Upper (Selective Fit)

1.......C5OE-6337-A-B.....Bearing - Main Center Upper

1.......C5OE-6337-A.......Bearing - Main Center Upper (Selective Fit)

4.......C5OE-6338-A-B.....Bearing - Main Lower

4.......C5OE-6338-A.......Bearing - Main Lower (Selective Fit)

1.......C5OE-6339-A-B.....Bearing - Main Center Lower

1.......C5OE-6339-A.......Bearing - Main Center Lower (Selective Fit)

8.......C6FE-6505-A.......Valve - Exhaust

8.......C6FE-6507-A.......Valve - Intake

16......S1CR-6513-A.......Spring - Valve - Assy

16......S1CR-6514-A.......Retainer - Spring - Valve - Top

16......S1CR-6A536-A......Retainer - Spring - Valve - Bottom

16......C5FE-6A517-A......Seal - Valve Stem

16......C6FE-6565-A.......Rod - Valve Push

1.......C6FE-6670-A.......Spring - Oil Pump relief

1.......S1MR-6582-A.......Cover - Valve RH

1.......S1MR-6582-C.......Cover - Valve LH

2.......C2OE-6584-A.......Gasket Valve Cover

1.......S7MR-9424-A.......Manifold - 2 - 4V Intake

1.......C2OE-9A424-A......Seal - Rear Intake Manifold

1.......C2OE-9A425-A......Seal - Front Intake Manifold

2.......C5OE-9439-A.......Gasket - Intake Manifold to Head

1.......C3OE-8255-A.......Gasket - Manifold Water Outlet

2.......C5ZA-9447-A.......Gasket - Carb Base

1.......C3AF-9510-BK......Carburetor - Holley 600 CFM

1.......C3AF-9510-BJ......Carburetor - Holley 600 CFM

4.......16R-463-A.........Float - Carburetor Fuel

2.......34R-2007..........Jet Plate #16

8.......88401-S8..........Stud - Carb to Manifold

8.......33798-S8..........Nut - 5/16 x 24 Carb to Manifold

1.......S1MR-6675-A.......Pan - Oil “Cobra Drilled for Temp”

1.......C2OE-6710-B.......Gasket - Oil Pan RH

1.......C2OE-6711-B.......Gasket - Oil Pan LH

2.......C2OE-6723-A.......Seal - Oil Pan Front and Rear

18......S2MS-6676-A.......Bolt - Oil Pan - 1/4 x 20 x .75

4.......S2MS-6676-B.......Bolt - Oil Pan - 5/16 x 16 x 1

1.......C3AE-6730-A.......Plug - Oil Pump Drain

1.......C2OE-6734-B.......Gasket - Oil Pump Drain Plug

1.......S1CR-6644-A.......Pick-up Oil Pump (Braced)

1.......S1CR-6626-A.......Bracket, Oil Pump Support

1.......S7MR-9351-A.......Cover, Fuel Pump Blacking

2.......C3DE-6766-C.......Breather Cap, Valve Cover

1.......C3AE-6714-A.......Oil Filter

1.......MS-20074-06-11....Screw - Oil Pump 3/8”

1.......MS-20074-06-06....Screw - Oil Pump 5/16”

1.......S7MS-9D280-A......Tube - Fuel Distribution - Carbs

1.......C3DA-9A722-A......Rod - Carburetor Throttle

1.......C3AE-8C760-A......Trunion - Carb Throttle Lever

1.......34656-S8..........Nut 10-32 Hx. Lock (Trunion)

1.......34079-S8..........Nut 10-32 Hx. (Throttle Rod)

2.......378536-S8B........Washer .214 ID x .44 OD

2.......377519-S..........Hairpin - Spring retaining

1.......C2SE-9E544-A......End - Carburetor Throttle Rod

1.......C5ZZ-12259-A......Wire Kit - Spark Plug

8.......S7MR-12240-A......Ends - 90 Sparkplug Wire Insul (Autolite P/N 20-5438

Edited by - J_Speegle on 09/10/2008 22:26:45

"S1CR-6250-2.......Camshaft"

what cam is this? specs?

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Going from memory so please correct me if I'm wrong, here are a few more changes done to at least some cars:

- Larger Holley 3255 carb, 780 cfm.

- R-Model intakes were not drilled for PCV vaccum fittings.

- Valve covers were standard steel units, each had a breather cap tube

- Electric fuel pumps

- Different camshaft?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>

- R-3255 carburetor: SAI installed ? Who knows? I have heard that but never seen a period picture of one in use that I recall. A 715 cfm model would have been plenty capacity wise. Engines might have been homologated with them as an option as they were for the Edlebrock® 2-4V cross ram induction and 180° ‘megaphone’ headers. Old SAAC publications indicated that the 2-4V and 180º headers were put in the list of options but I don’t recall ever seen anything that noted anybody getting them on a new race car. Even if the installer removes all the features of the R-3255 for its 427 Ford O.E. application the air bleeds drilled into each bore near the venturi are real easy to spot even in poor photographs. I don’t recall seeing any new GT350 racer images showing holes in the sides of carburetors. If you have a new car pre-first owner shot showing air bleeds in the sides of the carburetor please share.

- Intakes: Correct based on what I have experienced. Road race (and the drag race ‘DRAG’ stamped retail intakes) Didn’t get PCV, water temperature sensor, or heater hose ports drilled. Those ports weren’t needed.

- Valve covers: Correct. I over-looked the obvious, sorry. SAI started modifying O.E. steel valve covers almost as soon as the first Cobra hit the race track. There were several versions done in different time frames. I suspect that most later differences were due to who made them up. I have a few copies SAI race shop drawings and it is instantly clear there is not enough information on the drawings to be able to recreate parts from. The drawings that I have copies are more like guidelines. Fabricators did what they needed to get the job done. Dave Friedman published a picture of the engine in CSX2323 in Europe in early 1964 that shows valve covers modified into what has become known as “GT350R” covers long before the first GT350 was even dreamed of.

- Electric fuel pump(s): Correct but not really part of the engine. The standard practice for most SAI race cars 1963-65 was to use one or more electric pumps near the fuel tank to push fuel forward to O.E. mechanical pumps on the engines. This use to be a very common practice for all kinds of competition cars no matter who built them if the sanctioning body rules required the used on ‘stock’ fuel pumps. The legendary ‘FIA’ team Cobras that raced the world’s best still had plain Fairlane mechanical fuel pumps on their engines in 1965 based on old photos.

- Camshaft(s): Oops, another obvious miss on my part. Unsubstantiated legends are all that I know but old magazine articles from the period indicated than Engle® custom ground camshafts for SAI depending on what they wanted at the time of order. “Shelby” camshafts are very confusing as between 1963 and 1970 so many different grinds were offered through the SAI/Ford parts program. I have a spreadsheet where I have collected published data by retail part number or Ford part number. My list has eight ( different grinds under seventeen (17) different part numbers. Example, the O.E. HP289 grind is listed these different ways

C3OZ-6250-C Ford

S1CR-6250-D (GT350 street) Shelby

93219 Shelby/Honest Charlie 1967½ road race

GFJD-6250-A Shelby road race

FBE-1225-B Moon 1968 road race

[Not sure if this will help, but I remember seeing a restored R-model GT350 a number of years a go (I think it was SFM5R104, originally raced by Mack Yates. It was restored with a 3255 carb from a 427 Med Riser because this is what Yates used. This was because it looked just like the 715 carb and was considered a "cheater" part that the average SCCA inspector probably wouldn't pickup on.

As for the cam, a friend of mine drove a 65 GT350 (5S048, I think) that had a pair of Valley Head Service prepared heads that had come off of a GT40 that Jim Toesing(?) had put a DOHC Indy motor in. This Shelby also had an Engle cam, called a 156. I remember seeing this cam being referred to in some old literature as being one that Shelby had used in some R-models. Seems like it was less than .500" lift, but is sounded good and was one of the fastest 289 powered GT350s I had ever been in. It would eat my 66 GT350 alive.

Dave]

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Going from memory so please correct me if I'm wrong, here are a few more changes done to at least some cars:

- Larger Holley 3255 carb, 780 cfm.

- R-Model intakes were not drilled for PCV vaccum fittings.

- Valve covers were standard steel units, each had a breather cap tube

- Electric fuel pumps

- Different camshaft?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>

- R-3255 carburetor: SAI installed ? Who knows? I have heard that but never seen a period picture of one in use that I recall. A 715 cfm model would have been plenty capacity wise. Engines might have been homologated with them as an option as they were for the Edlebrock® 2-4V cross ram induction and 180° ‘megaphone’ headers. Old SAAC publications indicated that the 2-4V and 180º headers were put in the list of options but I don’t recall ever seen anything that noted anybody getting them on a new race car. Even if the installer removes all the features of the R-3255 for its 427 Ford O.E. application the air bleeds drilled into each bore near the venturi are real easy to spot even in poor photographs. I don’t recall seeing any new GT350 racer images showing holes in the sides of carburetors. If you have a new car pre-first owner shot showing air bleeds in the sides of the carburetor please share.

- Intakes: Correct based on what I have experienced. Road race (and the drag race ‘DRAG’ stamped retail intakes) Didn’t get PCV, water temperature sensor, or heater hose ports drilled. Those ports weren’t needed.

- Valve covers: Correct. I over-looked the obvious, sorry. SAI started modifying O.E. steel valve covers almost as soon as the first Cobra hit the race track. There were several versions done in different time frames. I suspect that most later differences were due to who made them up. I have a few copies SAI race shop drawings and it is instantly clear there is not enough information on the drawings to be able to recreate parts from. The drawings that I have copies are more like guidelines. Fabricators did what they needed to get the job done. Dave Friedman published a picture of the engine in CSX2323 in Europe in early 1964 that shows valve covers modified into what has become known as “GT350R” covers long before the first GT350 was even dreamed of.

- Electric fuel pump(s): Correct but not really part of the engine. The standard practice for most SAI race cars 1963-65 was to use one or more electric pumps near the fuel tank to push fuel forward to O.E. mechanical pumps on the engines. This use to be a very common practice for all kinds of competition cars no matter who built them if the sanctioning body rules required the used on ‘stock’ fuel pumps. The legendary ‘FIA’ team Cobras that raced the world’s best still had plain Fairlane mechanical fuel pumps on their engines in 1965 based on old photos.

- Camshaft(s): Oops, another obvious miss on my part. Unsubstantiated legends are all that I know but old magazine articles from the period indicated than Engle® custom ground camshafts for SAI depending on what they wanted at the time of order. “Shelby” camshafts are very confusing as between 1963 and 1970 so many different grinds were offered through the SAI/Ford parts program. I have a spreadsheet where I have collected published data by retail part number or Ford part number. My list has eight ( different grinds under seventeen (17) different part numbers. Example, the O.E. HP289 grind is listed these different ways

C3OZ-6250-C Ford

S1CR-6250-D (GT350 street) Shelby

93219 Shelby/Honest Charlie 1967½ road race

GFJD-6250-A Shelby road race

FBE-1225-B Moon 1968 road race

[/quote]

Edited by - csx4781 on 02/19/2010 00:05:16

Shelby sold lots of 'race' cams with advertised lifts of 0.485, 0.500, 0.508, and 0.522. They were mostly flat tappet but some roller too but those legends of old says independents never got exactly what team cars used.

I don't know about GT350 racers all that much but I have studied the Cobras a lot. For Cobras many 'race' parts Shelby sold retail were a little different to very much different than what was used on works team cars.

Anyone you know teardown an original Shelby Race motor and check any of those original cams?<img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Anyone you know teardown an original Shelby Race motor and check any of those original cams?<img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>

I do not. I personally know of only one Shelby 'race' engine that may be intact from day one. A friend has an early Cobra that was raced early on. When the HP260 was not enough the owner at the time purchased a race HP289 engine from Shelby and installed it. I never heard of that engine being removed for any reason and the car has not been driven much in decades. I don't think it has been started at all in about a dozen years. I have been after him to get the car running again so maybe one day he will remove the engine for rebuilding and I can see what is inside.

It was a race engine but that in itself doesn’t mean much because Shelby sold several different levels of race engine from mildly worked over stock HP289 to full of modifications including Webers and roller tappet camshaft. In 1963 and starting into 1964 even the full specification team Cobra racers with Webers used the stock HP289 camshafts. Engine modifications evolved over time.

As mentioned before one of the 67 K code race engine dyno sheets showed a Sullivan cam being used - would have to see if it list the specs

Below is at least what Ford/Shelby reported as the specs for a 66 R model (66 Trans Am) K code engine

[Blocked Image: http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/My%20details/1966ShelbyGrpIpg4.jpg]

Rogers Cylinder Head Porting service was also used, Ive seen SA checks made out to them and also purchase orders for race heads and Have had two sets of heads with their stampings. They look like the Valley portwork specs.

Ive also seen some later race engines that used grade 8 Allen head bolts with hardened washers rather than the Ford hex bolts

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Rogers Cylinder Head Porting service was also used, Ive seen SA checks made out to them and also purchase orders for race heads and Have had two sets of heads with their stampings. They look like the Valley portwork specs.

Ive also seen some later race engines that used grade 8 Allen head bolts with hardened washers rather than the Ford hex bolts

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>

By the time C6FE heads were out Joe Mondello's shop was preparing heads for Shelby also. I have Shelby race shop serial numbered cylinder heads from both Valley and Mondello. Modello's exhaust side is done slightly differently and he told me circa 2002 that was done to improve flow earlier in exhaust opening.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

As mentioned before one of the 67 K code race engine dyno sheets showed a Sullivan cam being used - would have to see if it list the specs

Below is at least what Ford/Shelby reported as the specs for a 66 R model (66 Trans Am) K code engine

[Blocked Image: http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f49/firetrainer/My%20details/1966ShelbyGrpIpg4.jpg]

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>

Isn't that the same lobe lift as a stock HP289? If the same lift was used I wonder if different event timing was used?

What would a cam builder adjust to help the " earlier exhaust opening," and how would it help? what would the exhaust port look like, i.e., WHERE would it be different? for hipo heads ONLY.<img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

What would a cam builder adjust to help the " earlier exhaust opening," and how would it help? what would the exhaust port look like, i.e., WHERE would it be different? for hipo heads ONLY.<img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>

If you are referring to my last post, Mr. Mondello told me he tailored the exhaust porting and exhaust valve pocket areas of the C6FE (a.k.a. GT40) heads his shop did for SAI to get more air moving earlier in valve opening. Said another way get more flow earlier as the exhaust valves just start to open no matter what camshaft is used.

In context we were discussing C6FE heads other shops did for SAI as compared to what his shop did. I wanted to use a set of C6FE heads on a Cobra with an original 1964 Weber induction system and have the best low end over-all performance without giving up decent upper end in the event I drop back to some type two plane intake in either a 1-4V or 2-4V configuration. Part of the freshening of the heads (original period worked castings with all new current ancillaries) for my play engine included keeping the 1960s style porting but adding hardened exhaust seats for unleaded fuel.

Any pics of the original Valley head service,Rodgers heads or others related to share with the ones who will never be lucky enuff to ever see them?

<img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>