What is considered the 3rd week of Oct 1965

poboy427_old · November 6, 2007 at 6:11 PM

Could I get a few of you guys to go to this link and look up October of 1965 calender and tell me in your opinions what is considered the 3rd week of Oct. This relates to the code on my 715 carb, built 3rd week of Oct or 5O3, thus my engine assembly date would have to be 3rd or 4th or 5th week of Oct. You will have to look at the calender to see what I mean.

http://www.geocities.com/MadisonAvenue/1147/calendar.html

BoS_old · November 7, 2007 at 6:23 AM

Hi,

Don't understand your comment on the assembly

date of the engine. The engine was assembled

shipped to and installed at San Jose with an Autolite

carb and then Shelby replaced them with a Holley for the

4-speed cars (also automatics through car #799) at his L.A.

plant. This means that the date code on a Holley can be

whatever date earlier than the car was reworked at Shelby.

For example, 6S923 was produced at Shelby in Feb 1966,

engine assembly date is Jan 6, 1966 but the original Holley

carb is dated 581, i.e. first week of Aug 1965.

/Bo

poboy427_old · November 7, 2007 at 3:53 PM

Ok, here is what I know. My car was invoiced out of Shelby on 12/28/1965. 715 carb is 5O3 third week of Oct'65. Mustang production guide and secret decoder disk agrees on 11/10/65 as very close assembly line production date. After comparing lots of data I believe my engine date code should be about 5K7 with an engine assembly date of 5K11. I have noted 12 C5AE blocks or more.4-7 days after casting to assembly is common and I have see 30-45 days too. Then shipped to San Jose by rail.

What do you see wrong with this time line? All that is missing on my car is the block. All date coded original rotating assembly and externals I have. I.E. fan is a J5-balancer J5.

BoS_old · November 7, 2007 at 5:30 PM

The problem I have is the reference in your poll email between

the assembly date of the engine and the Holley carb date.

"This relates to the code on my 715 carb, built 3rd week of Oct or 5O3, thus my engine assembly date would have to be 3rd or 4th or 5th week of Oct."

To my knowledge, there is no correlation between the two.

Can your carb date be original to your car, absolutely.

/Bo

poboy427_old · November 7, 2007 at 9:53 PM

Bo,

I knew Shelby put the 715 carb on it but I just wasn't thinking. Now I am straight on the point.

What do you think of the rest of my time line.

Marv and I were wanting to do some research on what the average amount of time it took for the train ride for the engine from Cleveland factory assembly point (early '66 Windsor hadn't started yet) to San Jose.

My car was built about 5L10 probably arrived at Shelby 5-10 days later. Was not shipped out of Shelby until 12/28/65

BoS_old · November 8, 2007 at 8:55 AM

Hi,

My original engine block cast date is 5D23 and my

engine assembly date is 5E3, i.e. 10 days later.

Car arrived at Shelby on 5/13 another 10 days later

than the engine assembly date. Car is 5S275.

As you can see a very tight time line. Engine shipped from

Cleveland to San Jose and put in the car and shipped from San

Jose to L.A. All in just 10 days. Maybe they flew the

engines to San Jose. My 513 carb is not the original to my car.

As regards your time line, I think you have done a terrific

job to identify the most probable block cast date and assembly

date. However, I believe it could even be a bit closer to the

5L10 date than almost a month earlier 5K11.

Are we sure that the engines were assembled at the Cleveland

plant or were the blocks just casted there? Personally, I haven't seen any documents saying neither nor.

It's a very interesting subject and I am as crazy as you are

on date codes. Have created a spread sheet with all dates

that relates to my car and it's various parts, sheet metal and

others.

Good luck with your continued research.

/Bo

round2K_old · November 8, 2007 at 9:05 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I am as crazy as you are

on date codes. Have created a spread sheet with all dates

that relates to my car and it's various parts, sheet metal and

others.

Take comfort in knowing you are not alone in your insanity! My engine assembly date was 12/17/64 with a scheduled build date of 12/30/64.

Edited by - round2K on 11/08/2007 09:06:45

BoS_old · November 8, 2007 at 9:40 AM

Some more info on 6S923. Scheduled production at San Jose

was around 12A, i.e. Jan.12, 1966 and engine assembly date

Jan.6. 1966. Only six days. Block cast date was Dec. 4, 1965.

/Bo

poboy427_old · November 8, 2007 at 4:45 PM

Bo,

Thanks for sharing your information on an ariginal car. My buddy has 6S749 and it too has original block date 5M1. His time line is very similar to yours. I did notice when he had his engine out for rebuild that he has the only K vin code block I have actually seen seen other than in pictures. I have found the vin stamped blocks to be rarer than the non-vin blocks.I have had a 1/2 dozen various code 289 blocks and none of them were vin stamped.

Wish I knew more about what blocks got stamped and why so many did not. The block vin numbers were stamped after the engine assembly date stamp was put on block, presumably just before it was lowered in the car. Any data on what factory plants were most consistent on doing the block vin stampings?

One of the things a lot of people aren't aware of is that the vin was assigned at the begining of the assembly line and stamped at some mid point in production so they came off the end of the assembly line rather random as some cars were delayed coming down the line for a particular reason or snag. Many guys thought they got stamped at end of assembly line in perfect sequence.

BoS_old · November 8, 2007 at 5:22 PM

My experience, which isn't that great on ownership of

HiPo engines, is the opposite to yours. My 65 Shelby %275 has the

original stamped block, the 66 Shelby #923 that I used to co-own has

original stamped block, the engine in my 67 Shelby (not-original)

has a stamped block (August 64) and a 67 HiPo engine I used to own had a stamped block as well. The 65 and 66 Shelbys were very visable

without any cleaning necessary while the other two took some real

work to make visable. Those two were found in Sweden and had been

used in winter times which made the surface rust quite deep.

In fact, many years ago here in Texas I was looking at a 65 GT HiPo

coupe and couldn't find the vin on the block and passed on the car

for $9500. The guy that bought it took off the paint and the vin was there.

/Bo

J_Speegle_old · November 8, 2007 at 9:57 PM

Do we mean Cleveland or Windsor?

As for San Jose the parts (before they went to the plant) would go through Richmond, Ca where they were often checked for damage (and routed. Damaged panels and such were often then rerouted to the service replacement supply, rather than the plant. Know a number of guys that worked and ran the distribution site

SixT5HiPo · November 8, 2007 at 10:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Maybe they flew the engines to San Jose...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Complete V-8 engines were shipped from the Cleveland plant by rail to the assembly plants. This was the most efficient way to move the many hundreds of thousands of engines needed to fill the needs of all the Ford carlines that used the venerable 289's. Moving such tonnage by air would not be cost effective or necessary. The finished engines were packed in containers that could hold many engines a piece. These containers were loaded onto railcars that could hold multiple containers. With an expedited schedule, it's possible to run a freight train from Ohio to the West coast in less than a week's time. The Ford assembly plants have rail connections that go from the mainline to the plant, so that railcars could be unloaded directly into the plant for maximum efficiency.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Are we sure that the engines were assembled at the Cleveland

plant or were the blocks just casted there? Personally, I haven't seen any documents saying neither nor.

Engines were manufactured and test run at Ford's Cleveland Foundry and Engine Plant. This has been confirmed by numerous independent researchers and Ford historians. I personally spoke to a retired Ford employee who was in charge of the dyno testing laboratory at Cleveland. He confirmed that 289 engines were assembled and tested before they left the Cleveland plant. He also confirmed that the engines were packed into heavy duty containers, and were shipped by rail to the appropriate Ford assembly plants that used them. Engines were randomly taken from the Cleveland loading docks and brought to the dyno room for quality assurance testing. If an engine failed on the dyno, it was stripped down and analyzed for defects. It was his responsibilty to oversee the tests and maintain documentation of the test results.

SixT5HiPo · November 8, 2007 at 10:21 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Do we mean Cleveland or Windsor?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

In general, most engine information on this site pertains to Cleveland, since Windsor did not produce the HiPo 289's...

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Damaged panels and such were often then rerouted to the service replacement supply, rather than the plant. Know a number of guys that worked and ran the distribution site.

That's correct. Many body shops obtained these pieces when ordering repair parts, and they often had to deal with service parts with imperfections. Back in the Sixties, I ordered a lot of body trim parts for my '64 Fairlane Sports Coupe, including the stainless trim mouldings that ran the length of the body. Even though they were new parts in factory wrappers, a few were less than perfect...

SixT5HiPo · November 8, 2007 at 10:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Some more info on 6S923. Scheduled production at San Jose

was around 12A, i.e. Jan.12, 1966 and engine assembly date

Jan.6. 1966. Only six days. Block cast date was Dec. 4, 1965.

/Bo

The scheduled build date is often out of sync with the actual assembly date by many days-especially on the K code cars. My car was ordered in late December of 1964. It has a scheduled build date of February 15th, 1965. The engine was actually assembled and stamped on the same date! The car wasn't invoiced and delivered by the dealer until March 31st, 1965.

poboy427_old · November 9, 2007 at 1:02 PM

Gene,

The engines were likely sorted according to engine code. In other words a ccontainer would most likely be all C code or all A code or all K code etc. The engines that were packed into

the container first at the engine assembly plant were the last ones out of the container at the auto assembly plant-perhaps-unless the container had an access door on each side.

Lots of variables make this date code thing very interesting to me.

Saw a 5K13 block today with a 5K14 assembly stamp.

One last point. I have seen pictures of bock vins stamped very neatly and evenly spaced, probably machine stamped, Then I saw one block (original) that was stamped very messy- obviously hand stamped as the characters were slanted etc.-Ray

CSXEng_old · November 9, 2007 at 7:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<hr class="bbcode_rule" />
Maybe they flew the engines to San Jose...
<hr class="bbcode_rule" />

Complete V-8 engines were shipped from the Cleveland plant by rail to the assembly plants. This was the most efficient way to move the many hundreds of thousands of engines needed to fill the needs of all the Ford carlines that used the venerable 289's. Moving such tonnage by air would not be cost effective or necessary. The finished engines were packed in containers that could hold many engines a piece. These containers were loaded onto railcars that could hold multiple containers. With an expedited schedule, it's possible to run a freight train from Ohio to the West coast in less than a week's time. The Ford assembly plants have rail connections that go from the mainline to the plant, so that railcars could be unloaded directly into the plant for maximum efficiency. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I have to agree with Gene. There is no way that the auto industry would ever consider shipping heavy auto parts like that by plane. There are dedicated freight trains that have priority as a fast hot

shots to get those parts to the assembly plants. I know, cause I'm an engineer for a freight railroad and I used to bring a train from New York State to the Metuchen assembly plant. This train originated from Toledo, Ohio. It was a two day trip. We would be the first train out of the yard that day because we were hot. Even the rail gangs had to clear up just so we would get through. At times I would work the yard in Metuchen and switch out the plant. There were times that I had to re-spot the freight cars back in the plant because certain cars had there own spots at the rail dock. I took the oppurtunity to look in the cars to find out that it was packed with engines in special metal cages from floor to celling. Some had fenders, engine hoods, axles, etc. We at times had to place a shutdown car in as quick as posible, because, if it was late the plant would shut down until that one car arrived. The rail industry has a fine line to keep the network going and one derailment causes a ripple effect. The railroad is the most efficient way to transport heavy bulk cargo. At the time I was working there, Ford was making the little Ranger trucks. There are trains that run from North Jersey to LA. in 72 hours.

Dave V.

BoS_old · November 9, 2007 at 7:48 PM

Talk about a "Just In-Time Supply Chain already

in 1965. Shelby 5S275's engine block casted 4/23,

engine assembled in Cleveland on 5/3, sent to San Jose

to be meeting up with the rest of the car, driven off the line,

shipped to L.A. and arrive there at 5/13. Could be like this:

5/3- engine ready

5/4- shipped by train to San Jose

5/7 or 8- arriving at San Jose

5/10- car complete and ready to go.

5/11- shipped to L.A.

5/13- arrive at L.A.

Very tight but possible. As said above, I am very impressed by their Supply Chain.

/Bo

poboy427_old · November 9, 2007 at 8:00 PM

Dave,

Glad you got in on this discussion. I was hopeful we had railroad guy that could talk the talk about not only the railroad but also the assembly plants.

Ray

SixT5HiPo · November 14, 2007 at 11:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

The engines were likely sorted according to engine code. In other words a container would most likely be all C code or all A code or all K code etc.

That would make sense, but I've never confirmed this...

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

Dave,

Glad you got in on this discussion. I was hopeful we had railroad guy that could talk the talk about not only the railroad but also the assembly plants.

Ray

Dave V. has provided us with some interesting details on how the railroad served Ford's Metuchen Plant before it was closed forever. His firsthand experience working on the railroad that served the Metuchen assembly plant confirmed and expanded the information already gathered from other sources regarding the way production material was delivered to the plant. Most of these methods are still in use today at Ford's operational assembly plants, just as they were back when the original Mustangs were being built.

Because of the amount of raw materials and parts needed to mass produce automobiles, railroads provide the most efficient way to move most of the material needed to supply the factories, foundries, and assembly plants. As a railroader, Dave performed an important role in the routine process of bringing carloads of assembly parts, including engines, to Ford's Metuchen Assembly Plant day after day. After all the parts are assembled, and the vehicles are completed, they are loaded into special railcars called auto racks. They measure about 90 feet in length and usually have three levels that can hold a lot of cars. The autoracks are made up into long trains that move hundreds and hundreds of cars at a time to distribution centers all around America. The cars are driven off the racks and loaded onto trailer trucks for final delivery to the dealers.

All of this has to work like clockwork every day for the auto industry to maintain peak efficiency. As Dave mentioned, sometimes just one railcar loaded with critical parts can make the difference between a plant working on schedule, or one that is forced to shutdown because all the parts are not available. It's amazing to realize how complex this system is!

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