Why do they always assume its a fake?

  • Is it just me or do any of you see the same thing? I'll admit that when I see stripes or a hipo badge I give a closer look (same goes for Shelby's)but why is that?

    Have we gotten to the point as owners that we assume a car is not what it appears to be until we determine otherwise?

    To this point, has the eveloution of "Clones" hurt the "real thing"?


    Granted, a large majority of show goers would walk past a hipo simply due to the fact that they don't know what it is in favor of a shelby. (clone or not)


    Obviously Shelby's are more well known, but do they, as well as hipo's really benifit from a "clone culture" or does it hurt them as well?


    Thoughts?


    6f09k

  • <font face='Comic Sans MS'>For myself, the Shelby clone craze has completely shut me down towards assuming what I see is geenie, at least for the 65-68 yrs. There are just to many of them out there. I don't take cloning as a bad thing (although there is a darker side to it for those that are integrity challenged), just a reflection of the zillions that in the current market, simply can't afford a real Shelby. So we go for the next best thing.


    The integrity issue was graphically illustrated a few years back here in Austin TX when a GT350H purchased from the east coast was proven a fake. According to the account, it had been verified as real by SAAC prior to the sale. The car remains in the area and has been in our local Mustang Show a time or two. </font id='Comic Sans MS'>

  • At the point where trust in authenticity is lost, the value any collectible is harmed. This does not appear to have happened yet with our cars, because values still seem to be on the rise. You may know that not long ago Barbara Streisand paid exorbitant prices, via her broker (who is now in jail I understand,) for antique arts and crafts (Stickley) furniture and brought this collectible category to its knees.


    We noticed that last year when Carroll Shelby visited one of the auctions in Monterey, we were convinced that he was not certain whether or not certain Cobras were authentic. Of course, there is not reason to believe that anyone would know or memorize every Cobra. But, he avoided questions / remarks regarding the “clone” word. Maybe it was just us, but we both noticed it.


    I guess my personal opinion on the subject (regarding our Ks) is that you guys are THE experts on these cars. Of course, there are many experts who do not participate in this website (i.e., don’t do computers, etc.) but I think this must be the primary outlet for published K Mustang information. Criticism from this site must be more like, when you guys look at a presumed K car, you don’t have to search for errors in the claims. Rather, they pop out at you. Heck, I’m even getting so I can spot some of the errors.


    Edited by - noelfisher on 10/17/2005 09:51:43


    Edited by - noelfisher on 10/17/2005 09:53:13

  • We assume cars are fake because most of them are. It's called conditioning! (Remember BF Skinner?)


    I think clones/fakes do hurt the values somewhat, but on the other end, if you have a really rare car that nobody knows about, then clones might help the value. I wonder how long it would take a new Mustang novice to learn about GT350 R models if there wasn't clones?


    At least with a K code, other than a re-body, there isn't much that can be done to alter one when the original VIN is present. It can be converted to GT or pony interior, or maybe had SS wheels added. I don't think this is that big of a deal though since the real intrinsic value is in the VIN engine code.


    Edited by - 65_289K on 10/17/2005 11:46:26

  • We'd always planned for the day when we could buy a 68 Shelby KR vert. Ten years ago the price was within our grasp. However, it wasn't a priority at the time.

    Then the Eleanor craze and all the associated vintage muscle car insanity started about five years ago.

    Prices for Shelby's for us became out of realistic reach. Well, maybe not really. If we sold our 11 other stangs we could have our ONE dream car that we couldn't drive. But that isn't as much fun as the various personalities in our stable including a K-code GT convertible.


    However the appreciation for the looks of a 68 Shelby hasn't gone.

    Three years ago when the chance to purchase a cheap rust free, yes truly rust free, AZ 68 convertible which someone had already added the fiberglass dropped in our laps we couldn't let it go.

    It was a very poor start at someone's idea of a Shelby, but it has since been stripped and rebuilt as we want it. Now we have a "replica" we are proud to drive and don't have fear as we would driving a "real" Shelby. We have no intention of defrauding anyone. It is not a perfect "clone" and anyone who knows anything can easily tell. But it is a damned nice car and worth much, much more than if left original in its Lime Gold C-code status.

    Some people want to look down their nose and say "you have a clone/fake because you can't afford a real Shelby." So what, not many people can afford a real Shelby today. Many who are critical of our "fake" probably couldn't even afford the fake either. If you own a real Shelby, more power to you, but doesn't give the right to judge those of us who appreciate them enough to imitate.

    My fake KR is insured for $15K more than my real K.

    "Real" and "Fake" make me laugh. "Is it Real" "It's a Fake" yeah buddy this car, solid steal (and fiberglass) sitting here in front of you is a hallucination. But this figment of our imagination is a lot more fun than sitting around wishing for the day when we could have a real Shelby!

    Don't mean to get defensive, but holy mackerel people this is a hobby, let each other enjoy it without the judgement and cynicism.


    J.

  • I guess I'll throw my 2 cents in............This sounds very much like some "Hot Rod" people I have been associated with. Funny how they would argue about "all steel" verses fiberglass rods - then someone came out with repo steel bodies........then they started the "real steel" verses "repo steel" debate - made me sick. Guess what....this will happen soon to the 67-68 Mustang fastback crowd - ala Shelby clones need bodies. Already has been released for the 69 Camaro and just released for the 69 Camaro convert.....Check out this months Hot Rod. Can you image the day when you can buy a full unibody and build anything? Rebuild a total rust bucket? Re-body here we come!!! Image if they do this for the 65-66 fastback. Any old K code VIN will be a mini gold mine for the less than honest crowd.


    Having owned an original K for many years, I have had more than my fair share of people telling me my car was fake, not real, etc - most or all wanting to "steal" the car from me hoping I was dumb enough not to know better - FAT CHANCE - took me and my Dad 5 minutes to know what the car was in 1979 when we bought it and what it was worth even then.


    As for the debate - build what you love - AND drive it - there are a few people who still drive their Shelbys and they should be praised - I will drive my K even after pumping big money into a resto - that is why they were built.


    The next time someone calls your car a fake or comments that it is a clone just ask - "So smart ***, WHERE'S YOURS?" You will be surprised at the reaction/response you get!


    Edited by - RalphJr on 10/17/2005 18:11:24

  • Quite simple actually.


    #1 - yes, there are THAT many crooks out there (or unknowledged, but a liar or deceiver took part) that we have to keep our eyes open. Do you honestly think there were this many 65-66 Factory GT's?


    #2 - I dont' see alot of what our feedback is, is criticizing or belittling. I see it as trying to keep the truth out there as much as possible. How many of us would have, or could have, walked right into the purchase of a fake K?


    Just my 2 cents.

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>


    #1 - yes, there are THAT many crooks out there...

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>

    Agreed, sadly.

    I know that if I were looking for a K at this time, I'd want to pass potential cars thru this site before laying any money down.


    <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

    #2 - our feedback is... trying to keep the truth out there as much as possible. How many of us would have, or could have, walked right into the purchase of a fake K?

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>

    Agreed, happily.

  • <BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>


    Some people want to look down their nose and say "you have a clone/fake because you can't afford a real Shelby." So what, not many people can afford a real Shelby today. Many who are critical of our "fake" probably couldn't even afford the fake either. If you own a real Shelby, more power to you, but doesn't give the right to judge those of us who appreciate them enough to imitate.

    My fake KR is insured for $15K more than my real K.

    "Real" and "Fake" make me laugh. "Is it Real" "It's a Fake" yeah buddy this car, solid steal (and fiberglass) sitting here in front of you is a hallucination. But this figment of our imagination is a lot more fun than sitting around wishing for the day when we could have a real Shelby!

    Don't mean to get defensive, but holy mackerel people this is a hobby, let each other enjoy it without the judgement and cynicism.


    J.

    <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana" size=2 id=quote>

    Joyce - you and your family have and deserve super respect. And, like most, you would not pretend that your cars were anything but what they really are. Not so with many "used car" salespeople out there.

  • I'll tell you why I look past them. Because all my life I've been a Mustang owner/lover. When I finally bit the bullet and purchased my dream car (K-code GT). I found that I'd been ripped off when I removed the passenger fender and found a C in place of the K!(K code was even on the title) Now, 15 months later, I'm still in litigation over this and haven't driven the damn car one mile. I'll never buy another "K" code Mustang as much as I love them. I'll just look at your's and admire it. I'll be happier cloning one myself so that I know what it is. /cheaper/honest

  • I guess I mught as well jump in also. From 67 up there is no question about a car being a GT or not.Get the Marti report.Whether or not the car sitting in front of you is the same car that left the factory with that vin is another story,but vin alterations aren't that tricky to spot if a person does their homework. On the 65/66 cars it's a little mre difficult to tell if a K code was also a factory GT. Fortunately there are so few factory GT K codes that if you assume that it is not you will be right 99% of the time.The K code option was A) expensive and came with everything good about the GT package anyway, with the exception of the disc brakes.It would be a rare individual indeed that liked those stripes and the gas cap enough to cough up the extra money for them when he already had the special handling package, 4bbl, dual exhaust and 4 speed tranny.For a long time my stance on that was that if you don't have an original window sticker, build sheet or buck tag then you don't have a factory GT K code, but with the way printing technology has taken off over the last few years even those items aren't a slam dunk anymore.I've seen too many people cut the dash out of a 66 model six cylinder rust bucket, weld up the extra dash pad holes from both sides and grind them flat and put it into their late 65 model A or K code, take a minute with swiss pattern files to turn their foglight wire holes in the radiator core support into 'stamped' holes and presto, they have a factory GT. People assume that the car is bogus because it almost certainly is. It is also possible that I have simply become a little too jaded from having looked at a whole bunch of mustangs over a whole bunch of years.When people are telling me about the car they are trying to sell I don't listen to anything they say.I don't believe it, I don't disbelieve it. I just don't hear it.I'll nod and say 'Really? Cool.' but I'm not even paying any attention to them.I listen to the car, not the guy trying to sell it, but that's just me. When someone tells me that they have just bought a 65/66 factory GT I just congratulate them on the acquisition of that rare and special classic and move on. If he believes that he has a factory GT, then, for all practical purposes, he does.The objective reality doesn't really have any effect on how much he enjoys the car if no one ever tells him.That's why the bogus cars are a lot easier to move then they should be.The buyer wants to believe that he has found that rare bird that he's been searching for and is more than willing to dismiss any inconsistancies as abherations resulting from sloppy manufacturing procedures. As long as people keep buying them like they're real, there will always be that sorry individual that will produce one on demand.

  • Try showing a 69 R code coupe. Don't know how many times people have asked me why I put a shaker on a coupe or why I didn't put that motor in a fastback. Few have looked at the VIN # and realised what a rare car it is.


    Afew years ago I was showing my 66 GT 350. Three guys walked up. I heard one loud mouth guy say "I know it's not real because it dosen't have a roll bar". I explained that 67 was the first year for street Shelbys to have roll bars. He was like "oh it's real? Is this the one I did a appraisal on last year?". My reply was a little harsher than it sould have been, but this guy was being a real horses a$$ showing off for his friends. I said "No and you don't know enough to appraise Shelbys". They left right after that.


    Larry

  • The good thing is the fact that people who do know what they are talking about(looking at) do react always very enthousiastic.

    And that is always very nice and makes you feel good. I learned to appreciate them so much, that I do not pay any attention anymore to the other group of so called 'specialists'.


    These people who are questioning each time, over and over again, not having a good look or not knowing what they are talking about, simply have a problem. It is causing them to say as well that your Rolex is not a real one, that you probably have been able to restore your Mustang with drugsmoney, that it is the bank who owns the car and that the paintjob is done poorly.


    Well, luckely there are more people around that appreciate what they see, leave the people in their value and let people enjoy, even if it is not an original....

  • I'll chime in on this one.

    I personally enjoy the Shelby 'clones' only I prefer the term 'replica'. I use the 'clone' term on poorly done imitation's that barely manage to get the stripes proper and leave it at that.

    I've been building a Guardsman Blue '65 GT350R model Mark Donohue 'replica' for about 5 years. I received it as a nice original Springtime Yellow non-GT A-code automatic. I've had the car 10 years and have been collecting the original Shelby parts just as long, as it's always been my goal. When it's done, it'll be worth almost twice what it would be if it were left stock.

    It'll be done in late 2007 for it's debut at the '08 Silver Springs show. I've used mostly original Shelby parts and repo's only as necessary. My final decision is R-model plexi-glas door and back windows or stay with original glass. It'll probably be plastic as everything else is pretty correct. I've even got the original 'Bed of snakes' alternate headers that actually came on 5R535 as one of my finishing touches.

    A local friend has 5R534 and verified their authenticity as his car has the same ones and they're vin stamped. These were the last two R-cars built and came with the optional headers instead of the standard tri-y's.

    I've learned a lot and met a bunch of great folks along the way. I'm also pretty good friends with the guys over at Holman-Moody now as a result - they did my cams for both the K-car and my R-car.


    My car will never be real but if Mark Donohue was still with us, I'd bet he wouldn't turn down a hot lap at Watkins Glen, VIR or Road Atlanta.....


    Preserve the hobby. If you can't afford the real deal then build the next best thing - a 'Replica' !!!


    Mark


    ps - my '66K has the window sticker, build sheets and owner warranty card........

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