K code registration ethics question

    Please forgive me if this is the wrong spot for this question but these seems to be where all of the experts post. I was wondering if it is ethical or even legal for that matter to represent your K Code Mustang as "numbers matching" if you know that your block is not original to your car and/or a restamp? It seems to me that this would be fraud if you did not disclose that kind of information. If you are putting your car in this registry and you are saying that its numbers matching shouldn't it be? Otherwise, whats the point of the registry. Can someone please advise?


    Edited by - SixT5HiPo on 10/27/2010 00:00:04

    The car doesn't have to be numbers matching or original to be in the registry.


    It sounds like your real question should be the definitions of numbers matching and original. That topic will foster a lot of discussion as there will be many opinions on the idea of numbers matching if you throw in the notion of an engine or transmission replacment.


    You can piece together a restoration and create a numbers matching car. The car won't be original, but the numbers can all match in terms of date codes and part numbers.


    With the HiPo cars there is the issue of VIN stamped engines and transmissions that were originally supplied with the cars. A VIN stamped replacement engine or transmission may be numbers matching in terms of date codes and part numbers, and the VIN may be the same, but it's not original.


    When you enter your car's details in the registry you should be honest about the condition and originality if you want to be ethical. I don't believe those details are available to the general public or forum members anyway, so there is no real way to determine if someone has misrepresented the condition of a car in the registry unless the forum moderators become aware of a specific situation.


    Edited by - round2K on 10/26/2010 05:56:37

    Great answer and thank you round2K. I see that you are from the same neck of the woods as I am, (Abbotsford here), maybe I can lean on you for advice from time to time. The reason I ask this question was for a few reasons.


    First of all I was lucky enough to find a long lost K code fastback, (registered as an A code here in Canada). I was able to register it properly as a K code car and, as a result actually able to find the original owner. He still had the original bill of sale and many pictures of it from 1966 for me to "build the car to." I bought the car July 1st of this year, and was able to trace its original registration through ICBC, enabling me to properly and legally register it as a K code, (1st time its been registered properly since 1971). Obviously all standards of proof had to be met for this process to occur.


    I have always been the kind of person who prefers originality over anything else when it comes to classic cars. To me this kind of car deserves to be restored to the condition and appearance that it would have been in when it left the factory. The one thing that bugged me was that my cars original engine was long gone, until I found it last week, (still in BC). That kind of made me wonder, what stops people from re-stamping blocks with the 'correct' VIN and what stops those same people from passing that car with a re-stamped block off as a numbers matching, original car?


    I realize that a car does not have to be numbers matching or original to be in the registry. I completely agree with your philosophy that if you do put your car in the registry you should disclose those details to the registry. There seems to be a way that incorrect engines and the like can be disclosed in the registry. I see that if certain symbol appears next to the VIN it indicates a certain thing. For instance a '#' means "transmission only," a '@' means "engine only," a '+' means "body only" and so on. Because there are so few of these symbols indicated beside the VINs in the registry it makes me wonder how much of this information is actually disclosed. I suppose from a legal standpoint its really only necessary to disclose these things if you sell your car. If you were to claim it to be an original engine car and you know or become aware that its not, shame on you.


    Thanks for your help!

    This post probably should be moved as this is the "for sale".


    Regardless, it is an interesting topic. I don't know that we can ever do anything about folks that re-stamp blocks/transmissions and try to pass them off as original. I'd like to think that with so few K cars that have survived, there would typically be some ownership/car history that would help in determining fraud. For example, if you are looking to buy a K code, which is advertised as matching numbers with a VIN stamped block, using resources such as this site might yield further information on the car that shows it was sold a while back with a non-matching numbers block. Either the new owner got really lucky and found the original block or new numbers were stamped. I would challenge that of the few engines that a VIN has been stamped, under scrutiny, differences could be seen. It wouldn't take that many samples from the same assembly plant and time period to make an educated guess if a VIN stamp is real or fake.


    All in all, we really have no way of knowing if registry cars are legit. Owners/buyers have to leverage resources and do their homework to determine what is real and what isn't.

    I'll chime in here......


    This is all good stuff and spot on!

    I grew up with both Mustangs and Corvettes in the family and my Dad still has both.

    In the Corvette world, all engines were VIN stamped on the pad over the machined broach marks adjacent to the mating head surface. All date codes were always before the build date of the car - nothing new here.

    However, it has become perfectly acceptable in the ultra-anal Corvette community to assemble/build a date code correct engine, resurface the block, apply new machining broach marks (though not always) and re-stamp the block accordingly. For the most part, owners disclose that it is numbers matching and date code correct but not the engine that it was born with. Gives a value of approx. 90% of a true orig. engine car as opposed to 70-80% with just a replacement engine. There's always a few ethically challenged owners out there that won't disclose.....searching for that almighty $$$.


    That being said, if you're an un-informed or mis-informed buyer purchasing a #'s matching car, be it a Ford, Chevy, Mopar, etc., the burden lies with you, the purchaser, to perform the proper verifications.

    This particular case, the owner purchased just that, a date code correct, numbers matching '66 K fastback. Unless you've studied numerous original VIN block stamps, whose to know the difference. Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.......it's also listed in the HPMX registry accordingly.

    Now, out of the blue, a fellow HPMX member and K-owner winds up with your 'real' original engine with a verified VIN that matches your Kar....uh-oh, now what?? Your Kar is now worth approx. 10-15% less today than yesterday - bummer. Course of action would be to try and make a deal to purchase the engine and move forward. It's value lies in what it's worth to you (fair or not)to put your Kar back into the Orig. Engine / #'s Matching category. If the price exceeds the percieved added value, then pass. However pass with caution as it's extremely rare to be given the opportunity to re-unite an engine with it's original Kar - at any price!!


    For pure logistics (Like in the SAAC Registry), a notation needs to be made in the file on the said Kar with new information about the engine re-stamp. Also, that the original engine has surfaced but yet to be re-united with said Kar. Information to follow.....


    I hope this gets resolved with an ammicable and happy ending!!


    Mark


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    Sadly a few years ago I bought a motor and transmission for $250 and cleaned the motor up to find out that it was a vin# stamped 289. I didn't know that there was a site like this and I just sold it on ebay. Had I known, I would have posted it to see if I could have found the owner.


    I was blessed enough to find my k car with the vin on both the motor and transmission, and I also found my 67 Camaro SS vert with the Motor vin on it. It is a nice thing to have for sure.

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