Driveshaft markings

I tend to think that Bo may be correct, and that "vert" is used to denote a color that is not the typical forest green that we commonly picture in our minds eye. My driveshaft had two stripes, more toward the differential end, and I beleive that one was a dark green from what was left of it. The other I always imagined was white - but it could have been yellow, pink, grey or now I wonder if it could have been a light yellowish-green color that I only imagined was white. The stripes were certainly there but as we all know the colors tend to lose their identity over the years. I think we are all interested in this and need to get to some kind of a resolution. I am sure that Ford did not call for two stripes, one green and one vert and intend for them to be the same color. "Vert" must indicate an unusual shade. Tom, in your years looking at theese kinds of specs, have you ever noticed any other specifications that call for marking with VERT? Just thinking out loud on this. I had saved the drawing Tom posted long ago but the resolution was terrible and I really couldn't make anything of it.

Edited by - Murf on 12/14/2007 12:22:11

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Charles Turner finally chimed in.....Charles I'm not being defensive I'm merely providing information for the betterment of the hobby. As always someone comes forth as a self appointed expert that has to thump there chest because they think they know more about these cars then Ford Motor.

If the green & vert paint stripes colors were revised in any way from initial release to the end of production I would have stated so.

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Obviously you still have issues with people questioning the documentation you provide. And yet you still refuse to answer simple questions about blueprint vs. design. If you don't know, then say so. If you really are interested in the betterment of the hobby, you'll check your attitude at the door and work with us in getting to the bottom of the more challenging details such as drive shaft stripes.

Murf, It is obvious to me that green & vert are two different shades of green. What shades they are I do not know. Jeff Speegle is the color pallet expert.

Possibly Bo. In other references Ford used "dark" and "light" prefixes to describe different hues of a color rather than different names. One example though where they did was in the use of Azur in some references.

Looking at chips it seems that "vert" is pretty much a standard looking medium forest green.

Search continues

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Charles Turner finally chimed in.....Charles I'm not being defensive I'm merely providing information for the betterment of the hobby. As always someone comes forth as a self appointed expert that has to thump there chest because they think they know more about these cars then Ford Motor.

If the green & vert paint stripes colors were revised in any way from initial release to the end of production I would have stated so.

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Obviously you still have issues with people questioning the documentation you provide. And yet you still refuse to answer simple questions about blueprint vs. design. If you don't know, then say so. If you really are interested in the betterment of the hobby, you'll check your attitude at the door and work with us in getting to the bottom of the more challenging details such as drive shaft stripes.

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I have no issue with the documentation provided. Why would I it is not my data. Charles as an MCA head judge I would think you would have more diplomacy & welcome all Ford technical data to help authenticate the MCA rule book, instead you alway take offense.

Not once did you ask for the data. Maybe MCA should have a technical board of review made up of automotive engineers to help you sort through the data. You have all the information I have as posted here & previously. I have nothing further to add or provide on the subject you & all forum readers have it all. I will wait until MCA come to a conclusion on this matter until then my driveshaft will go with out stripes. Again I apologize for any & all controversy the Ford data has caused any member of this forum.

Tom: At the 2006 MCA judges meeting, I put forth a proposal to pursue obtaining original documentation from Ford Motor Company to help validate our rules. It was voted on and approved. This year we are making strides in that direction with the MCA VP having made progress with our Ford contact who is looking into the matter. I would have asked for your help, but did not believe you would be cooperative.

I have been as diplomatic as possible, it's your attitude that everything published by Ford should be considered the gospel that I have a problem with. We have already proven the alternator bracket drawing did not reflect what we find on production cars. If you would simply have more of an open-mind in this matter, we could work together and solve some production mysteries.

None of the documentation has caused any controversies, only peaked our interest to learn more.

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Tom: At the 2006 MCA judges meeting, I put forth a proposal to pursue obtaining original documentation from Ford Motor Company to help validate our rules. It was voted on and approved. This year we are making strides in that direction with the MCA VP having made progress with our Ford contact who is looking into the matter. I would have asked for your help, but did not believe you would be cooperative.

I have been as diplomatic as possible, it's your attitude that everything published by Ford should be considered the gospel that I have a problem with. We have already proven the alternator bracket drawing did not reflect what we find on production cars. If you would simply have more of an open-mind in this matter, we could work together and solve some production mysteries.

None of the documentation has caused any controversies, only peaked our interest to learn more.

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Charles: Do you have a copy of Ford Motor Company engineering material specification for phosphate & oil?

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Charles: Do you have a copy of Ford Motor Company engineering material specification for phosphate & oil?

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I don't have a copy of an official Ford document, but according to the AMK Products Guide to Ford Fasteners, on page 3, the S2 Phosphate & Oil finish and requirement is listed as:

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"This finish is a phosphate conversion coating plus an oil, black or dark gray in color, and is intended for general use on steel parts which do not require long term attractive appearance. Parts shall be evenly coated with oil. Parts supplied shall withstand 72 hour salt spray test.

The phosphate coating shall be fine of medium grain size with a minimum coating weight of 1000 mg. per sq. ft. It shall ordinarily be of the <b>zinc</b> phosphate type, but manganese phosphate type may be used provided all other requirements are met. The specific phosphate process used is optional with the supplier, but it is recommended that all special cleaning and post-phosphate solutions used be obtained from the same source as the phosphate bath. (This does not necessarily apply to the oil used.) Controls shall be provided for solution composition and concentration, and for time and temperature of the process steps, so as to assure a uniform coating which meets the above requirements.

To avoid phosphate coating of coarse grain size or excessive weight, use of strong acids or alkalies for cleaning should be minimized. If the condition of parts prior to treatment require such cleaning, a neutralizing rinse should be used prior to phosphating."</i>

I still have the pic up of a lower alternator adjustment brace from an unrestored low mile '65: http://www.early-mustang.com/charles/Dsc00899.jpg

Phosphate does not flake off like paint.

Don't throw in the towel yet; there has to be someone out there with an unrestored driveshaft. 375 hits means you probably have anther 1,200 K code owners to go. I keep hoping someone has one too.

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Well I guess no one is willing to step up and post pictures or even a verbal description of what they found on their driveshafts. Evidently everyones drive shaft is/was so rusty they have no documentation.

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Merlyn, there is a pic of my original 66 SJ tube in the thread listed above in Dave's post.

Merlyn: It is reasons like this that we <i>should</i> be exploring the discrepancies between production cars and engineering drawings.

I wish it was as easy as just looking it up on a chart. There's probably some dusty stack of assembly line documents sitting somewhere that would answer all our questions about driveshaft stripes!!

You hang in there and keep looking. Something will come up eventually.

I would be cautious about comparing Shelby driveshafts to a stock hipo because of the transmission differences. I haven't ever worked on the internals of a T-10, but if the yoke is different than a toploader and the gear box has a different overall length then those shafts could have had different markings.

Edited by - round2K on 12/16/2007 09:38:45

Charles…Just wanted you to know Ford phosphate & oil can also be black in color.

Many of us including myself entered this hobby without unrestored/unmolested vehicles; if you feel you have that luxury you are correct restore to original to the best of your ability/believe. Even if several pictures of alternator brackets, driveshaft paint stripes, leaf spring paint markings, battery hold down clamp etc. are revealed I don’t think I would be convinced (do the math) my vehicle was built that way. By having & sharing the Ford data I’m hopefully giving each individual the option to make the choice if so desired to restore to a picture/photo or what ever they deem to be correct or the way Ford intended the vehicle/part to be produced. Given the choice I personally will take the Ford (or MCA) way.

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Charles…Just wanted you to know Ford phosphate & oil can also be black in color.

Many of us including myself entered this hobby without unrestored/unmolested vehicles; if you feel you have that luxury you are correct restore to original to the best of your ability/believe. Even if several pictures of alternator brackets, driveshaft paint stripes, leaf spring paint markings, battery hold down clamp etc. are revealed I don’t think I would be convinced (do the math) my vehicle was built that way. By having & sharing the Ford data I’m hopefully giving each individual the option to make the choice if so desired to restore to a picture/photo or what ever they deem to be correct or the way Ford intended the vehicle/part to be produced. Given the choice I personally will take the Ford (or MCA) way.

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Yes, I was aware that a darker color phosphate was possible. AMK fasteners tend to be the darker appearance... which means they might possibly be using manganese instead of zinc.

I certainly can respect your choice of how to restore your car and also understand that not everyone has a pristine original to start with. All we can really do is pull from multiple sources to try and answer questions we have. In the event that we cannot ascertain answers by observing physical evidence (cars), then the only choice is to accept or not accept the Ford documentation. Even then, that is a calculated risk... but undoubtedly a viable choice that has a certain level of validity as it pertains to a certain detail in question.

If you would be willing to share information about how/where you have obtained the original drawings, I can relay that information to the MCA/Ford liaison and possibly have MCA enter into some type of mutual agreement to review the documentation for research purposes. Send me a private message or e-mail and we can go from there.