Starter motor types

1st Official Post

    Hi Guys

    I realise this is not K specific but it does relate to my car.

    I was given a starter by a guy who has a 289 with an auto trans.

    I think the starter snouts for manual and auto are different?

    I compared the 'new' one and my old one side by side and the snouts are the same sizes overall from mounting face to tip.

    This measurement is @ 2 5/8".

    My flywheel teeth do not look too good, they are taking a beating.

    I wonder if my existing starter is for an auto trans?

    Is there a means to tell auto from manual ? My car is manual

    They have 2 bolts each.

    The cast number on the auto snout is C3OE 11131-A

    The existing one is aftermarket with no number.

    Thanks


    Edited by - cobraboy on 12/30/2009 08:56:35

    <font face='Comic Sans MS'>Can't directly comment on starter differences, although I've never run into a fit problem over the years.


    While you probably already know this, the ring gear on a flywheel can be removed by heating. If tooth condition on the 'unused' side of the gear justifies, the work to pull the trans and have a shop reverse the gear on the flywheel may be justified.</font id='Comic Sans MS'>


    [Blocked Image: http://s4.tinypic.com/30w2jyw_th.jpg]

    • Official Post

    As much trouble as it is to pull the trans, bell housing and flywheel, I would put on a new ring gear instead of just reversing it. I have had one that was extreme in its wear pattern as it was rolling the teeth over and would not work in the opposite direction. Of course, being that I am in the U.S. makes that easier as I can get one from my local parts store or just go out into my own garage and pull an NOS one out of own stock<img src=images/icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>. However, being as you are in England, it would be a good idea to acquire one before attempting the job.


    -Fred-

    65 Koupe early San Jose Phoenician Yellow 4 speed
    66 GT Koupe Dearborn Blue 4 speed
    66 KGT San Jose fastback pony interior Silver Frost 4 speed
    64 Falcon sedan delivery 289 4 speed
    65 Ranchero 289 4 speed
    66 Corvette roadster 427/425 4 speed

    Hello fellas

    Hope you had a great Christmas.

    I have been crawling all over the VMF and it appears I have 2 auto trans starters<img src=images/icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

    After taking some careful measurements I have made up a spacer out of 2mm alloy sheet.

    The starter gear was not withdrawing far enough to clear the ring gear.

    After looking at the ring gear with a magnifying glass I can see it is the front face of the teeth that have been in contact with the starter gear and the remainder of the teeth are in good order.

    So by pulling the starter away a little with a spacer I hope all will now be well.

    Fred you are right - being so far away from supplies is a real PITA,

    You want to be careful you dont roll out of bed onto something hard


    <img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

    I hope the coming year is better for you than the last.

    Mark

    • Official Post

    Mark, If you are contacting the ring gear only on the front face, then moving the starter away from the bell housing will only make that worse. You need to also look at your starter drive to see how much contact that gear is making. I just looked the starter up in my Ford MPC and it lists manual and automatic trans starters as the same for our early Mustang applications. There are Fairlane applications where automatic and manual transmissions take different starters. The starter nose that you have is the correct one for your Kar.


    -Fred-

    65 Koupe early San Jose Phoenician Yellow 4 speed
    66 GT Koupe Dearborn Blue 4 speed
    66 KGT San Jose fastback pony interior Silver Frost 4 speed
    64 Falcon sedan delivery 289 4 speed
    65 Ranchero 289 4 speed
    66 Corvette roadster 427/425 4 speed

    Hi Fred

    I may have worded that confusingly.

    When I pulled the starter the front face of the ring gear looked shiney and a tiny bit knarled.

    I measured how far back the front face of the ring gear was from the starter mounting face and this was @ 3/4".

    I them measured how far the starter teeth were sticking out beyond the mounting face at rest and got the same dimension.

    So I realised the starter was running against the ring gear.

    By fitting the spacer I have given a 2mm gap between the gears at rest.

    But I have also ensured in doing this that when the starter gear is thrown into mesh that there is enough travel to give a full penetration into the ring gear.

    I am suprised you have found out that the manual calls for a common starter as my dabbling on the VMF suggested that there were two different snouts for manual and auto.

    There is lots of talk about spacers on there too so I cant claim an original idea on that one. Thanks Mark

    I am of course assuming that the gears need to be apart and not in constant mesh ????

    Also I have yet again been fooled by years of paint and crud.

    I have found stampings and date codes on the original starter it is Ford.


    Edited by - cobraboy on 12/30/2009 17:21:42

    • Official Post

    Mark, I was trying to keep this simple by only addressing our early Mustangs. The later Mustangs beginning in 1968 did start to have different starters between automatics and standard transmissions. Most of this was due to the chageover in some Mustangs from 157 or 160 tooth ring gear flywheels to 164 tooth flywheels. That does not affect our early Mustangs. I looked on the VMF forum and I noticed that most problems were related to the later cars. You are correct that your starter teeth should not be hitting the ring gear when the starter is disengaged. Believe me, you would know if they were engaged as they will make a tremendous amount of noise while the engine is running plus the starter and flywheel teeth would both turn blue from the heat. You can simulate this by just holding your ignition switch to the start position after the engine starts. It is normal to have wear on the front side of the ring gear teeth from use over time. I would suggest that you either replace the ring gear or at the very least reverse it as has been previously suggested. You already have my input as to reversing the gear. Keep in mind that your block separator plate to the bell housing already acts as a shim for the starter. Any further shims will only cause less engagement of the starter drive.


    -Fred-

    65 Koupe early San Jose Phoenician Yellow 4 speed
    66 GT Koupe Dearborn Blue 4 speed
    66 KGT San Jose fastback pony interior Silver Frost 4 speed
    64 Falcon sedan delivery 289 4 speed
    65 Ranchero 289 4 speed
    66 Corvette roadster 427/425 4 speed

    Fred

    Thanks for clearing that up, I will probably change out the starter gear as it is a bit worn and will then keep a watch on it.

    It does not make any bad noises at the moment.

    As the 'new' starter came from an unmolested auto car and was the same as mine I was concerned mine was not correct, but you have put me straight on that.

    Thanks

    Mark


    Edited by - cobraboy on 01/01/2010 13:55:06

    I was under the impression the parts houses all list a different starter for manual and automatic cars (including the early ones) and all of them have them listed backwards. I know I had to put the original snout on a new starter for it to line up properly (actually I ended up pulling the entire guts and put it in the original case as well). I do know for sure the starters listed for our cars do have two different snouts whether they are supposed to or not I couldn't say.

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