Posts by Dan Case

    Here is an Ebay auction for a used FoMoCo Weber intake manifold by Ebay member "super-novass" with a starting bid of $9.99:

    This is a vintage intake manifold that accepts four Weber downdraft carburetors such as 48IDA models. This intake fits Small Block Ford 260, 289, and 302 engines. This intake came out of an estate so I do not have any history on it. It has multiple casting numbers on it as shown in the pictures that include, "C4OZ-6B068-C", "FCA 1073 2", "S1CR 9423", and "RONWILL". I believe the C40Z-6B068-C is a Ford part number. A quick Google search shows this number as the Ford 4 Weber intake system first offered in 1964. I believe the "S1CR-9423" is a Shelby number. The "RONWILL" is likely the manufacturer that cast the intake. The FCA 1073 2 is a mystery to me. I have not been able to find another example of this intake online. I have seen others similar to it but none with a provision to accept a thermostat housing. Other have two coolant nipples coming out of the front in leau of the thermostat housing provision. I believe this to be a very rare factory prototype or one off design for a factory connected racer. This must have cost a lot to engineer and cast so it must have been done for a special and connected person/team. Don't miss this awesome intake.
    This intake is in awesome original condition as shown. It does not appear to have ever been used or installed. It was quite dirty when found from decades on a shelf. I used plastic media at low pressure to remove the dirt and debris without altering the original finish. There are no breaks, modifications, or repairs to this intake. All threads are mint with no helicoils or thread inserts. There is no pitting or other corrosion issues. There is also no porting or any other issues. The casting is very old and surprisingly heavy. You can be fairly certain you will never see another one of these. Don't miss this amazing intake!
    The last picture is from is from the 1964 Ford manual, "Ford Performance Tips From AK Miller". I posted this simply to show that Ford made a Weber Kit for the Small Block Ford that carried the same part number that is cast into this intake. The catalog can be found online and is not included in this listing.
    This is your chance to own the Small Block Ford intake for Weber downdraft carbs you have been dreaming about at NO RESERVE! That's right, the high bidder on this intake at auction end will be the proud new owner. Don't Miss Out!
    Check out my other listings for more rare and hard to find parts.

    Small Block Ford Weber Intake Manifold C4OZ-6B068-C Shelby Mustang Cobra GT-40 | eBay

    -Fred-

    I don't know who made this intake or why or when but it is not a anything I ever knew about from Ford or Shelby in the 1960s. I have pictures of many versions of Ford and Shelby prototype and production intakes 1962-70 and none are remotely like the one offered.


    The numbers cast into it are Ford Motor Company and Shelby American sales numbers for induction kits (intakes, linkages, carburetors, gaskets, and tuning manual) and not engineering numbers for factory intake castings. The C4OZ-C number is the Ford number for the kit using 48 IDM1/IDM5 carburetors sold over the counter listed at over $1,200 retail in 1963 through early 1964.

    This is most of an unrestored C4OZ-6B068-C Ford Motor Company kit. It is missing all the linkage system required to install on an engine and the water neck and fuel log assembly.

    IMG_3691.JPG

    The S1CR number is a Shelby American number for a kit with 48 IDA/IDA1 carburetors mid 1964 through early 1967.

    This is a 99% complete unrestored S1CR-9423 Shelby American kit.

    MVC-005S.JPG


    I read questions about whether or not Ford offered 260/289 c.i.d. 4-2V "Weber" induction systems for new Fords in the 1960s. Specifically some folks ask about Mustangs. The short answers are:

    - No. 4-2V systems were not offered for new street cars factory installed EXCEPT Cobras and GT40s (only one new street Cobra was ordered and completed).

    - Yes. Selected new Ford and Lincoln-Mercury competition only cars could be ordered with "Webers". At least one new 1965 MUSTANG GT350 competition car was so fitted for a customer in South America.

    - Yes. Anybody could order kits through their local Ford / L-M dealer for any 260/289 powered Ford and have the dealer install it (or install it themselves). Ford used a Fairlane picture in advertising of systems.


    This is the collection of kit data I have.

    Carburetor(s) Used Ford Kit Number Suggested Retail Price / Year

    48 IDM1 first then 48 IDM5 C4OZ-6B068-C $1,230.70 / 1963 early

    48 IDM5 C4OZ-6B068-C $1,000 / 1963 late to early 1964

    48 IDA or 48 IDA1 C5OZ-6B068-A $695.00 / 1964 mid

    48 IDA or 48 IDA1 C5OZ-6B068-A $595.00 / 1964 late to 1965

    48 IDA or 48 IDA1 S1CR-9423 (new intake design) $595.00 / 1964 through 1967

    48 IDA1 S7WK-9423 $595.00 / 1967 (COUGAR lettered intake)


    To give you some perspective. A well optioned VW(R) Beetle in 1963 was around $1,500 retail I think.

    Exact designs of linkage and other ancillaries changed over time. Linkage systems started off being very complicated with lots of intricate small parts. The steel levers required were hand fabricated by Shelby American race shop employees as required. The S1CR-9423 system was a significant redesign with simple linkage system comprised of mass produced parts sourced mainly from Eelco(R)and Hilborn (R). By 1965 the systems of the day could be purchased through Ford dealers, Shelby's parts department, or Dean Moon's businesses.

    Do you have any idea what material the reproductions were made of? Originals were not cast iron. Originals were made in SAE 1030 steel.

    Ford wise there were several "COBRA" versions for Cobras (five bolt engines), Sunbeam Tigers marked "TIGER", six bolt 289 engines marked "COBRA", 427 Cobras marked "COBRA", a five bolt 260/289 "WEDGE" marked one for Cyclone's own markets, and a two piece "WEDGE M/T" marked assembly Mickey Thompson offered for five bolt 260/289 engines.

    Cyclone catalog (1).jpg

    Just as an example, a group of HP289 engines were assembled August 25-26, 1964 that were built with G4 dated harmonic balancers. One engine that had never apart had a 4H6 casting date intake manifold. More than one in the lot had August 1964 cast timing covers. Distributors were assembled 4GB and 4HB.


    In September this engine was assembled: Assembly date 4J15, the intake was cast 4J4, the dizzy assembled 4HB, block cast 4H16, head castings poured 4G21, and the balancer was dated G4.

    You are welcome, that was the 1964 Fairlane engine model year closure that ended engine serial numbers. Bob Mannel's last known assembly date published for a numbered five bolt engine was in early July 1964.

    1965 model year six bolt engine assembly replaced them as the new product. 221/260/289 engines, which were made in Cleveland were all referenced as Fairlane engines. Even early Shelby advertising and magazines called engines in Cobras Fairlane engines. (Tip: Calling them Windsor engines is a technical and historical mistake.)

    I have seen pictures of a five bolt service replacement engine with an assembly date in 1971. That makes sense to me because Ford had to be able to supply some type service replacement for ten years after production ended. I bought some "new" 1963-66 Ford FE engine rocker shaft and arm assemblies in 1975 at the local Ford dealer. The parts had inked date stamps on them. The assemblies were made a week AFTER I ordered them.

    Ford stopped numbering five bolt engines as the 1964 model year stopped. Ford made a run of five bolt engines for Shelby American in August 1964 that were not numbered. That was after six bolt engines were introduced.

    Ford was required to provide service engines for years. I have seen pictures of a service five bolt engine assembled long after 1964.

    The market is so small I wouldn’t hazard what market price range might be. Speaking for myself, if I was hunting another pair, Ford ones not prepared for one of the 1960s teams, I would offer at least twice what similar condition production HP289 heads were selling for at the time.

    Value, way too speculative for me to guess as there are lots of variables. Potential buyers might want to know if they are Ford originals or reproductions. A complication is that Ford made two different "original" casting versions. Another is that multiple companies have been making imitations since about 1974 for vintage racing.

    In this century, but more than a decade ago, I have paid or sold as little as $1,200 for a set Shelby American used in a GT40 at Le Mans and $6,000 for set used in the Shelby-Titus 1967 Group II Mustang. These are factory race team serial numbered and matched sets though.

    HP289 Oil Slinger.jpgThey did and it is different than a standard 289 slinger. 289 parts have crush rings while HP289 parts do not.


    After we bought the red car in 2003 I could not set the ignition timing. The strobe showed timing varying wildly. This was odd since the engine only had 3,700 miles on it since it was rebuilt. It was a weak performing engine but the carburetor was so fouled up I thought it might be a big part of what was wrong. What I learned between what I found in tear down and talking with the former owner included two key details:

    • The man chose a full synthetic engine oil but paid no attention to “zinc” content.
    • He neglected to install an oil slinger on the crankshaft.

    So? So every all ferrous metal slipping interface set of parts, i.e. moved together without a ball or roller bearing, was worn out in 3,700 miles. The worst wear was the timing chain and sprocket gears. With no direct lubrication they became the most worn all metal timing set I have ever had in my hands. I could almost slip the chain around either gear with my fingers and could with a little screwdriver.


    When I was hunting a HP289 version back then they were very hard to find in any condition. You can use a standard part and that is what Ford superseded the original part with in later service parts lists. In the last few years they have shown up in eBay® listings every few months. Sometimes sellers know they have a HP289 part and sometimes they do not. I found and purchased a good used HP289 part for our red car and I use oil formulated for old engines.

    PS It is possible to take a "780" vacuum secondary carburetor and tune it (parts changes required) to work well on a 260 c.i.d. Ford industrial Engine in a Sunbeam Tiger or at the other end of the scale a 427 Light Weight or 427 HR race only engine in a 427 Cobra racer. There was a particular Ford carburetor that "size" that was specified and internationally registered as a racing option for Sunbeam Tigers, 1965 MUSTANG GT350s, and 427 Cobra full competition cars.

    That Ford serial number is not linked to any new Cobra's invoice. I just checked with the Registrar. Based on data I have collected since the early 1980s only on the order of 8% to 9% of the five bolt bell housing 1963½-64 289 High Performance engines went into new Cobras.

    i know that 112 4100 carbs were install on 390 engines , i thinking a 112 4100 would run well on a 347 stroker , just looking for opinions ,thanks.

    Depends on a lot of factors.


    First understand that the assembly line Ford 4100As in the 1.12 size normally test as flowing around 526± a little SAE corrected standard cubic feet per minute (cfm). That is without an air cleaner, which is a restriction. 4100As can be reworked to increase air flow at standard rating conditions for 4V carburetors. The highest average corrected flows I use to see usually for modified units came in around 570± cfm corrected.


    Second understand that most dynamometer horse power does not automatically mean quickest car. Every car maker and aftermarket company and a few magazine companies proved many times it is best to have a carburetor a little too small than any amount too large. Many sources publish good rules for 4V carburetor sizing for specific applications where only one carburetor is used. The rules change completely for individual running induction systems as the physics / flow dynamics are very much different. Box ram type manifolds change the rules.


    289 c.i.d. engines that are seriously race prepared using a single 4V carburetor calculate out to working best with carburetor flows between 403 cfm and 569 cfm depending on the engine revolutions per minute (rpm) at maximum power, volumetric efficiency, and what that rpm at peak power is. Believe it or not some of the most successful 1960s-1970s racers using 289 c.i.d. engines in Falcons and Mustangs dropped from the 1.12 size carburetors to the 1.08 size carburetors.


    How about a 347 c.i.d. engine? The carburetor type and size I would recommend depends on lots of factors: type of vehicle, vehicle weight, transmission specifics, differential gearing, open or limited slip differential, camshaft characteristics (what was it designed to do?), specific intake manifold and any modifications thereof, exhaust system, type of fuel to be used most of the time, altitude the vehicle was going to be used around most of the time, and the type of driving use most of the time and occasionally.


    At or near sea level, assuming a Ford 4100 something (1.08, 1.12, or 1.19 size) based on the original post, one might choose a carburetor with an actual corrected flow between 483 and 683 c.f.m. covering street driving that won’t land one in jail to serious high engine rpm power band racing. As one goes up in altitude the size of the carburetor used would go down to stay optimum. Just because most Ford stock calibrations were rated for 0 to 5,000 feet above sea level doesn’t mean the air fuel curves stayed the same as altitude increased.


    Also don’t assume your vacuum secondaries are doing much if anything. Several problems can render them inactive. Your 500 cfm 4V might work as let us say a 300 cfm 2V. (I just repaired an early 1966 MUSTANG GT350 R-3259-1 Holley® carburetor that has not been a 4V unit in many years. Years ago somebody installed some incorrect parts (2) during an overhaul and the secondaries were dead from then on. I test carburetors before I dismantle them and most Ford 4100A secondaries do not function at all in as received condition.) It is very good practice to test secondary operation before saying you are done with a carburetor. You must set up a scenario where you can visually verify that the secondaries open at an appropriate time and an appropriate amount. Vacuum secondaries are self sizing in that for a given carburetor the secondaries that won’t ever open on lets says a 221 c.i.d. engine might start opening at 2,000 rpm on a 430 c.i.d. engine.

    I want to point out that the SHELBY® lettered version of intake manifold was a 1968-1971 aftermarket accessory. Rare does not always mean valuable.

    Performance wise the 1966 FoMoCo® lettered 2-4V high rise intake that went with two custom Ford/Holley racing carburetors was a big improvement in street and race performance. The 1967-68 versions of 2-4V with an intake designed for SCCA® Trans-AM® racing and SK mechanical secondaries and center squirter carburetors raised the racing performance even more.

    Dan thank you for your reply and guidance , i dont have those type of measuring tools , i thought of using a magnifying glass that might show some difference between the two, would the M booster have larger orifices than the KA booster,

    I do not remember what is different among these parts anymore. The supports have multiple air bleeds and passages in multiple locations.