Posts by bobmannel

Grommet looks just like the one used for the Fairlane antenna coming through the upper kickpanel sheet metal. If you have a diameter of the hole, I could check.

There is nothing in the Ford MPC to suggest any gear ratio differences between 1966 V8 C4s. The HiPo had a lighter secondary governor valve, two control valve spring changes, two enlarged holes in the separation plate, and a larger "C" servo. Otherwise, it was the same as the other V8 C4s.

Yes, each stamping was done by hand, at least in 1965 production. So, the stamping had an area to be placed, but nothing more specific, and will vary. The date code stamping was in the same general area, but instructions on how to be placed -- just "somewhere". In the pictures I have seen, the date stamp on production alternators was on the right of the Autolite stamping. I have seen one reading the same direction as the Autolite stamp (about a June 1965 stamping), and one turned 90 degrees (An August 1964 stamping). Both stampings were very weak and nearly impossible to read. The format was the month in three capital letters, the day, followed by the full year (e.g., AUG 20 1964 or JUN 10 1965). More samples are needed to draw conclusions. What complicates things are the many other stampings found on service replacement alternators that do not match the production versions. Some of these replacements were thought to be production, so there remains confusion. Until more originals are located, we will not know. Unfortunately, the stampings were hidden on the 289 when mounted on the engine, and faded into oblivion rather quickly

I reported that my source said the color of the stamping was according to the amp rating and that the date stamping was a different color for each shift. The two found so far with good evidence of production originality show the color of the date stamping to be the same as the amp rating. Furthermore, the 38 amp alternator color code was to be purple -- but it looks blue to me (next to true blue it might have a purple tint to the blue color, but not the true purple we think of).

Complicating things further, I have seen stampings of 1965 alternators out of Canada with the FoMoCo stamping, service replacements with the stamping on the left side of the Autolite stamping, and date stamping using a letter for the month (e.g., B 22 1965, with the 22 in a different font than the 1965). In all these cases, the date code color was the same as the Autolite or FoMoCo stamping.

We need more data!!!

There is good evidence that 38 amp alternators were used as well. I talked to a guy who worked at Ford during 1965 production and his job was to stamp the alternators. He said he had a fixture to set the alternator in which for us was bottom side up. The fan was facing away from him. He then stamped the alternator with the appropriate color coded stamp. He also stamped the date code with another stamp. He said the color of the date stamping was different for each of the three shifts, but he could not remember the colors.

Ford MPC shows driveshaft length (between U-joint centers) for standard 289s with 3-speed or 4-speed as 50-25/32", and for C4 as 51-1/16". That is a difference of 9/32" (not much -- about 1/4"). The 289 HiPo with 3-speed or 4-speed (3-speed?) was listed as 50-7/64". The 289 HiPo with C4 was not listed.

That's what the books say. I can tell you there are plenty of errors in applications, so sometimes best to go on the math, which suggests that the C4 driveshaft was 9/32" longer than the one for the 4-speed. So, I would expect that the proper length for the 289 HiPo with C4, if it were listed, would have been 50-25/64". Only way to know for sure is for someone with an original 66 Mustang HiPo automatic to measure the driveshaft.

To throw more mud in the air, in other applications where the C4 and 4-speed are dimensionally the same as the Mustang, The 1965 Falcon shows a difference between C4 and 4-speed as 11/32" (C4 longer), whereas the 1966-67 Fairlane shows the same length for both, as does the 1967 Mustang.

Detailed records have not been uncovered, so getting to numbers is iffy at best. However, the HiPo block sequence numbers helps. Based on these and production numbers we do known, I estimate that 3,000±100 1964 Fairlane HiPos were made. I have 160 recorded VINs or sightings with three being automatics. Statistically, it suggests a number between 50 and 60. But, the real number remains unknown.

Actually, we do. I talked to John Onken, Fairlane Planner at Ford, back in the 1980s about these cars. Her is the story. Around the Dearborn area, a local racer had stuck a C4 behind

a 289 HiPo and was doing quite well at the races. Word got out,

so when Fairlane Planning Manager John Onken and Executive

Engineer Howard Freers got together for their weekly meeting to

discuss joint planning/engineering issues related to the Fairlane,

they casually discussed the possibility of a high performance

Fairlane with an automatic. Howard mused that maybe the C4

transmission had enough torque capacity that Transmission Division

would let them put it behind the high performance engine.

Howard checked into it and found that the C4 torque capability

was just two or three foot-pounds over the 312 maximum

torque output of the high performance 289 engine. He also found

out that the engineers in Transmission Division were willing to

accept the combination as long as engine torque was within the

C4’s torque limitations. Howard quietly neglected to tell them

how much horsepower the engine was going to put out!

Howard’s next question was to John Onken. “How do we

make this happen?” John said that if Howard would get the car

built, he would get Don Frey, then Assistant General Manager of

Ford Division, to drive it. A few weeks later Howard called John

saying he had the car built, and now the ball was in John’s court

for getting Don to drive it.

John Onken took the car over to Ford Division, talked to the

superintendent of the garage and said he had a car, he thought

Mr. Frey would like to drive. John left the car in Don Frey’s stall

and dropped off a note to Don’s secretary that there was a car in

his stall that John Onken thought Don might like to drive that

night.

About 20 minutes after John Onken got to his office the next

day, he got a call from Don Frey, “That’s a great car! What do

we need to do to make it happen?” John explained that the

Transmission Division signed off on the torque issue, so all that

was needed was to tell the engineers to release it. Don Frey said,

“Let’s do it!”

Well, it turned out the engineers needed to do a little more

than bolt it up, now that they were roped into the deal by Don

Frey’s approval. The result was the release of Ford Technical

Service Bulletin (TSB) 7053, Article 26, dated May 11, 1964, which

covered the revised service procedures for the new C4 automatic

with the high performance 289.

So, there is your documentation to the fact. In my Fairlane K-code Registry I have three such cars. One I have actually driven. Two are hardtops and the third is a hardtop Sports Coupe. Few of these cars were made because it was late in the production year and not nationally advertised until 1965. I have one of the 1965s. I believe that I posted the PDF covering this option if someone can find it within these forums.

The HiPo C4 for 1965 and 1966 was the same. The 1967 was different because of the 1-2-D selction pattern. The flex-plate stamped number is C4OE-6375-C.

Fred, Do I have that sequencial number? If not, would like to get the number and VIN.

These pumps are very rare as they were used for only about a month. They first came out in June 1965, but were quickly superseded by the C6OE-A pump even before the end of 65 production. As to impellers, they can easily be changed by a rebuilder. There are quite a few 6-vane 4" impellers (HiPo-type) out there. Knowing all this, some rebuilders use these impellers on water pumps with desireable casting numbers and sell them as HiPo water pumps for significant money. For someone who has a Mustang made in June 65 with L8 on the engine tag, the C5OE-8505B water pump is the one they need for concours-correct restoration. With so few serviving, they are extremely difficult to find. I think I have come across only two in the last 20 years. (unlike the C6OE-A pump which is easy to find because it was used for about 2½ years). So, you have a very limited market (low demand) and a rare part (limited supply). The two balance each other for value (based on supply and demand), but I consider a rebuildable one worth about $100. Swap out the impeller for the correct on for a HiPo (about 2" depth, 4" diameter, and 6-vanes with three round holes) and you could at least double that to the right person.

The HiPo Fairlane used the same T-10 gear set as the standard big-block Galaxies of 1963-64, except for the input shaft which was extended 3/8" for the thicker bellhousing. Borg-Warner also made optional nickel gear sets of this ratio for the Galaxie, which could be substituted. Ratios were 2.36, 1.78, 1.41, and 1.00. In 1963-64, Ford also had an optional nickel set for the Galaxie for what it called a close ratio (2.36, 1.62, 1.20, and 1.00) for use with the 427. It replaced the 2nd, 3rd gear, and cluster gears. The remaining gears were the same as the optional nickel gears for the standard big-block ratio set. This later set was used in the GT-350 Mustang. I don't know if Shelby had a special nickel input shaft (4th gear), used the 289 HiPo input (non-nickel), or used the nickel input with the C5TZ extended pilot bushing.

Starting in late 1964, Ford also used the toploader for the Fairlane HiPo. In 1965, T-10 and toploaders were used with no customer choice as which was received. Toploaders went to Galaxies (and Montereys) and HiPo Mustangs (and the few Comet HiPos produced) as a priority. Fairlanes got what was left and T-10s filled in the difference.

I would like to get some clear sharply focused closeup pictures (front and side angles) of the installed brass plug used on the C4OF and C5OF HiPo carburetor to block off the vacuum advance. I have one picture, but would like to have a few more. You can email me directly at bobmannel@charter.net. Thanks.

There were no numbers on the original crankshaft sprocket.

Clamp is the same on the HiPo as the standard engines.

[Blocked Image: http://www.fordsmallblock.com/Pictures/1965FuelClamp2.jpg]

[Blocked Image: http://www.fordsmallblock.com/Pictures/1965FuelClamp1.jpg]

I don't know of any cases where the fan date would be after the engine assembly month. The fan was part of the engine when tested, which would be done shortly after the engine was assembled.

Have not started on the starter motor stamping. It is just a low priority since it is not seen. I want to do the coil next.

Has anyone come across a C6ZE-6380-A flywheel that is stamped either C6ZE-A or C6ZE-B?

Fans were often made in batches outside of Ford but under contract and date stamped when made, having nothing to do with the engine. So fan dates can be months before the engine or car. It just depends on how long it took to get low on stock before more were made. Some fans might be in the same month as the car and/or engine, but others months earlier.

Ford produced K-codes with the standard option list if customers wanted them some other way to what was sent out to the dealers. But, Ford did not modify them with the sole exception of the Thunderbolts. The Thunderbolts were in essentially two groups -- the first 11 were fully built K-codes, then modified by Dearborn Steel Tubing (DST). The DSO was 89 (Transportation Services within Ford Motor Company). Next was a pilot car, then the remaining were partial K-code cars without a drivetrain. Even these were not completed by a Ford assembly plant, but a Ford contractor. They all carried the 89 DSO and either a 0004 or 0024 special order number. In 1963 there were reported to be 13 Lightning Bolts built by Carroll Shelby with Paxton Superchargers. I have heard a rumor about 37 similarly built in 1964, but none has ever surfaced that I am aware of, nor do I have any firm documentation of Carroll Shelby modifying these cars. These again left the factory as standard K-codes and were modified elsewhere. They did not carry special order numbers or anything other than standard district sales office numbers. The first I heard of "Baby Bolts" is from people who wanted to make a connection with the Thunderbolts, but had small-block V8 motors. The name stuck, but I have not seen any evidence to support the use of the term in 1964. As for the name itself, I think it sounds rather wimpy. The Fairlane is either a K-code because it came from the factory with the high performance 289, or a 1964 Thunderbolt (with 427). All other configurations are modifieds outside of Ford.

K-codes have risen to the level where cars are being rebodied to assume a K-code serial number from a scrapped car. Done with meticulous care, it can be hard to detect, but I don't know of any so far that have been done to that level of care. If you know where and what to look for, you can get a pretty good idea of whether the real car is still there.

The car in question is unknown by me. I do have 9 Burgundy 64 Fairlane hardtops in my Fairlane K-code registry. If I had a serial number on this car, I could say more if it is in my list.

There appear to be a number of HiPo blocks cast in June that were held for Shelby for the Cobra. This is likely because Shelby wanted the 5-bolts for which he had already done the engineering (rather than the 6-bolt, although he eventually did install some in Cobras). All the engines that fell in this group seem to have late August assembly date codes. Your engine appears to be one of them.

One Cobra engine with a 4F5 block was assembled on 4H28. Since there is more than one like yours, and it was stamped with a sequenctial number, I doubt that the repair was the reason for the spread between block and assembly date. In addition, this repair is not in the areas Ford designated as a repairable area according to Ford's TSB #25, Article 477. That is not to say it is not a Ford repair, only that reasonable doubt remains without further information.

Can't answer the first question. As to the second question, you can't predict with any degree of certainty a correlation between the engine casting and the car's door tag date. The door tag is a scheduled date. The car could be finished before or after that date by weeks. The block casting number only tells you when the block was actually cast. There is also an assembly date code which is when the engine was assembled. It will always be after the casting date of the block and all other casting dates on the engine (the intake manifold being the easiest to see), by days, weeks, or in rare cases, months. But, the assembly date of the engine can be before or after the door tag date. If after, it is usually not too much after -- a week or two. Engines can be 4 weeks or more before the door tag date, and anything in between. Two months is getting out there, but it is still possible.

When looking over such a situation, it is best to get as many date codes as you can and see if there is at least consistency. For example, if the casting date code of the intake manifold is after the engine assembly date code, then someone has been messing around with the engine. I would be more suspicious of the engine preceeding the car by a couple months in that case. But, if everything is consistent, the motor numbers all look good, it becomes very difficult for someone to state with any authority the engine is not original when falling in a broad range prior to, to a smaller range after, the car's date.

Here is an example of seemingly wrong dates being correct. I have a 65 Fairlane HiPo built in April 1965. The differential tag and casting date codes were July 1964. That's 9 months earlier than the scheduled build date of the car. Easy to say this can't be. When I removed the axle housing and began a clean up on it, I discovered a repair. When the metal was stamped for the center housing, the metal folded over on itself rather than being formed. The stamping of the folded metal caused it to crack in the fold. Probably leaked after assembled. The crack as repaired by welding and the differential surface was resurfaced at the weld. It was a very professional-looking repair. My guess is that after the repair, the axle assembly was rotated into production and wound up in my car nine months later.

Already have this imformation. Trying to see if other alternators can be identified as 38-amp on the 289. I had always thought that the 289 received the 42-amp alternator, but it appears the 38-amp was also used. So, I am trying to collect any more data that verifies this.