Ford stopped numbering five bolt engines as the 1964 model year stopped. Ford made a run of five bolt engines for Shelby American in August 1964 that were not numbered. That was after six bolt engines were introduced.
Ford was required to provide service engines for years. I have seen pictures of a service five bolt engine assembled long after 1964.
The market is so small I wouldn’t hazard what market price range might be. Speaking for myself, if I was hunting another pair, Ford ones not prepared for one of the 1960s teams, I would offer at least twice what similar condition production HP289 heads were selling for at the time.
Value, way too speculative for me to guess as there are lots of variables. Potential buyers might want to know if they are Ford originals or reproductions. A complication is that Ford made two different "original" casting versions. Another is that multiple companies have been making imitations since about 1974 for vintage racing.
In this century, but more than a decade ago, I have paid or sold as little as $1,200 for a set Shelby American used in a GT40 at Le Mans and $6,000 for set used in the Shelby-Titus 1967 Group II Mustang. These are factory race team serial numbered and matched sets though.
Thank you Dan , i was looking through my left over 289/302 engine components from small blocks i have taken apart through the years and have both versions of the slingers you show in your post and the difference is clear as to the flat and crush area.
You are welcome.
After we bought the red car in 2003 I could not set the ignition timing. The strobe showed timing varying wildly. This was odd since the engine only had 3,700 miles on it since it was rebuilt. It was a weak performing engine but the carburetor was so fouled up I thought it might be a big part of what was wrong. What I learned between what I found in tear down and talking with the former owner included two key details:
So? So every all ferrous metal slipping interface set of parts, i.e. moved together without a ball or roller bearing, was worn out in 3,700 miles. The worst wear was the timing chain and sprocket gears. With no direct lubrication they became the most worn all metal timing set I have ever had in my hands. I could almost slip the chain around either gear with my fingers and could with a little screwdriver.
When I was hunting a HP289 version back then they were very hard to find in any condition. You can use a standard part and that is what Ford superseded the original part with in later service parts lists. In the last few years they have shown up in eBay® listings every few months. Sometimes sellers know they have a HP289 part and sometimes they do not. I found and purchased a good used HP289 part for our red car and I use oil formulated for old engines.
That’s true.
PS It is possible to take a "780" vacuum secondary carburetor and tune it (parts changes required) to work well on a 260 c.i.d. Ford industrial Engine in a Sunbeam Tiger or at the other end of the scale a 427 Light Weight or 427 HR race only engine in a 427 Cobra racer. There was a particular Ford carburetor that "size" that was specified and internationally registered as a racing option for Sunbeam Tigers, 1965 MUSTANG GT350s, and 427 Cobra full competition cars.
That Ford serial number is not linked to any new Cobra's invoice. I just checked with the Registrar. Based on data I have collected since the early 1980s only on the order of 8% to 9% of the five bolt bell housing 1963½-64 289 High Performance engines went into new Cobras.
i know that 112 4100 carbs were install on 390 engines , i thinking a 112 4100 would run well on a 347 stroker , just looking for opinions ,thanks.
Depends on a lot of factors.
First understand that the assembly line Ford 4100As in the 1.12 size normally test as flowing around 526± a little SAE corrected standard cubic feet per minute (cfm). That is without an air cleaner, which is a restriction. 4100As can be reworked to increase air flow at standard rating conditions for 4V carburetors. The highest average corrected flows I use to see usually for modified units came in around 570± cfm corrected.
Second understand that most dynamometer horse power does not automatically mean quickest car. Every car maker and aftermarket company and a few magazine companies proved many times it is best to have a carburetor a little too small than any amount too large. Many sources publish good rules for 4V carburetor sizing for specific applications where only one carburetor is used. The rules change completely for individual running induction systems as the physics / flow dynamics are very much different. Box ram type manifolds change the rules.
289 c.i.d. engines that are seriously race prepared using a single 4V carburetor calculate out to working best with carburetor flows between 403 cfm and 569 cfm depending on the engine revolutions per minute (rpm) at maximum power, volumetric efficiency, and what that rpm at peak power is. Believe it or not some of the most successful 1960s-1970s racers using 289 c.i.d. engines in Falcons and Mustangs dropped from the 1.12 size carburetors to the 1.08 size carburetors.
How about a 347 c.i.d. engine? The carburetor type and size I would recommend depends on lots of factors: type of vehicle, vehicle weight, transmission specifics, differential gearing, open or limited slip differential, camshaft characteristics (what was it designed to do?), specific intake manifold and any modifications thereof, exhaust system, type of fuel to be used most of the time, altitude the vehicle was going to be used around most of the time, and the type of driving use most of the time and occasionally.
At or near sea level, assuming a Ford 4100 something (1.08, 1.12, or 1.19 size) based on the original post, one might choose a carburetor with an actual corrected flow between 483 and 683 c.f.m. covering street driving that won’t land one in jail to serious high engine rpm power band racing. As one goes up in altitude the size of the carburetor used would go down to stay optimum. Just because most Ford stock calibrations were rated for 0 to 5,000 feet above sea level doesn’t mean the air fuel curves stayed the same as altitude increased.
Also don’t assume your vacuum secondaries are doing much if anything. Several problems can render them inactive. Your 500 cfm 4V might work as let us say a 300 cfm 2V. (I just repaired an early 1966 MUSTANG GT350 R-3259-1 Holley® carburetor that has not been a 4V unit in many years. Years ago somebody installed some incorrect parts (2) during an overhaul and the secondaries were dead from then on. I test carburetors before I dismantle them and most Ford 4100A secondaries do not function at all in as received condition.) It is very good practice to test secondary operation before saying you are done with a carburetor. You must set up a scenario where you can visually verify that the secondaries open at an appropriate time and an appropriate amount. Vacuum secondaries are self sizing in that for a given carburetor the secondaries that won’t ever open on lets says a 221 c.i.d. engine might start opening at 2,000 rpm on a 430 c.i.d. engine.
Display MoreDisplay MoreDisplay MoreDisplay MoreDisplay MoreDisplay MoreHere is an Ebay auction for a used COBRA dual quad intake and carb setup by Ebay member "sirelliott " with a starting bid of $2,350.00 and a Buy-It-Now of $3,100.00:
You are bidding on a very nice OEM Ford Mustang Shelby 289 302 HiPo Dual Quad aluminum intake manifold, carbs, linkage and Cobra air cleaner set up. Intake is original Shelby 2 x 4 and looks to have had very little use. One water outlet bolt is broke off and will need to be repaired. Carbs appear to be Edelbrock with number 1673 stamped on them and will need to be rebuilt. No other info on them. Linkage is also included. Cobra air cleaner has been modified to fit. Very rare, excellent manifold. May fit other vehicles. Check your application. No porting or cutting has been done on this intake. Will make a nice addition to your OEM restoration or daily driver. May have to be shipped in more than 1 box.
Thanks for looking and good luck bidding. I offer local pick up. Will ship worldwide but shipping will be more. Flat rate shipping if offered, is for lower 48 ONLY. Check out my other auctions. Also have other FE & Cleveland heads, Intakes, blocks, cranks etc. If you need additional info, please e-mail me at bmoye2000 at bellsouth dot net or call 7705843022.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/284017481362?ul_noapp=true
-Fred-
This used COBRA dual quad intake and carb setup received no bids by September 26, 2020 and therefore did NOT sell.
-Fred-
This used COBRA dual quad intake and carb setup is back on Ebay again with no changes:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2745130662…em=274513066216
-Fred-
This used COBRA dual quad intake and carb setup received no bids by October 5, 2020 and therefore did NOT sell.
-Fred-
This used COBRA dual quad intake and carb setup is back on Ebay again with new lower starting bid of $2,295.00 and a Buy-It-Now of $2,995.00:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2745230551…em=274523055172
-Fred-
This used COBRA dual quad intake and carb setup received no bids by October 13, 2020 and therefore did NOT sell.
-Fred-
This used COBRA dual quad intake and carb setup is back on Ebay again with new lower Buy-It-Now of $2,350.00 or make offer:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2745336105…em=274533610566
-Fred-
I want to point out that the SHELBY® lettered version of intake manifold was a 1968-1971 aftermarket accessory. Rare does not always mean valuable.
Performance wise the 1966 FoMoCo® lettered 2-4V high rise intake that went with two custom Ford/Holley racing carburetors was a big improvement in street and race performance. The 1967-68 versions of 2-4V with an intake designed for SCCA® Trans-AM® racing and SK mechanical secondaries and center squirter carburetors raised the racing performance even more.
Dan thank you for your reply and guidance , i dont have those type of measuring tools , i thought of using a magnifying glass that might show some difference between the two, would the M booster have larger orifices than the KA booster,
I do not remember what is different among these parts anymore. The supports have multiple air bleeds and passages in multiple locations.
The film was made in 1965. It has been very popular with Shelby American Automobile Club members since the mid 1970s.
Thanks for the tip fred , i will need to remove it to compare them , whats the best way to measure them, - chuck.
Precision go / no go pin gauge sets to measure tiny orifices after keeping parts and tools at 73°F (room temperature) for 24 hours first. Industrially our test room was kept at 73°F and 50% RH.
I hope this link works. Well known brand name performance intakes were not the only game around. One of the stranger aftermarket brands was Man-a-Fre®. The Ford 260/289 4-2V intakes were something some racers used.
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/…-intake.989833/
My choice for modified installations is a Boss 302 spacer if a PCV system is used but there were several earlier thin Bakelite Ford parts. Some had PCV connections, some were flat and some were tapered, some just a vacuum port, and some no port. Some were real thin and some were a half inch thick. There were also two thin aluminum spacers from the 1950s time frame Ford used. I have samples of most of them. Ford parts wise there was all kind of choices and many of them could be used in many more applications by enlarging their bores as required.
I’m using a FORD lettered from the Muscle Parts era. Seems to be modeled after the F4B and Cobra/Shelby. Not sure if it’s marked C9OX or C9OZ.
The C9OX prefix model is an excellent intake. It was created for owners to use with 351W cylinder heads on 289/non-Boss 302 short blocks. Multiple studies and racer testimonials proclaim it to be the best flowing best balance in flow intake out of the box of any of the Ford application 260/289/non-Boss 302 intakes. They are also said to be excellent to used with the C6FE cylinder heads GT40s and Group II racing Mustangs and Cougars used.
Too much to cover here but briefly 260-289 4V intakes before the 1964½ high riser Cobra intake family developed:
1961-62 Ford engineering prototypes and preproduction cast iron models in different casting patterns: 5 each versions that are documented.
1962-63 Holman-Moody cast aluminum patterns: 4 each patterns based on one of the Ford prototype 260 4V intakes.
1962-64 "COBRA" cast aluminum: 1 each pattern. (Shelby and H-M connection)
Sunbeam Tiger: "TIGER" aluminum: 1 each pattern. (Shelby and H-M connection)
The first aftermarket aluminum 260 4V intake was the Holman-Moody model for their race engines.
Remarked COBRA, this design was used in new Cobras with 260 and 289 c.i.d. engines 1962-64. It was also advertised for sale in magazines. The picture below is one I took of my intake.
The first high rise 4V intake known for Cobras was this model. They are very rare. They were not intended for street use. No PCV features, no engineering number, no part number, and very light weight thin wall casting. I have seen six of them ever and three were broken or had been broken as they are fragile. The one below was ordered for a new 1964 Cobra for dealer installation and the installation never happened. It is the only one known that has never been used. I bought it from the Cobra owner after he sold the car decades later. This is another of my pictures. In late fall 1964 the first version of S1MS GT350 intakes came out which was similar but different.
I could not find my Offenhauser brand catalog. I have lots of magazines also.
I didn't hunt long but Shelby had the COBRA low rise 4V aluminum intake offered in a September 1963 magazine I thumbed through. The offer covered a Ford iron intake or the Cobra aluminum one, buyer's choice. A artistic rendition of the COBRA intake was shown.
I could a few find other catalogs 1962-68 but 1966 was not covered except by Shelby. The 1964 Edelbrock catalog only has the F-28 2-4V intake for 260/289 Fords listed. The earliest I came across for other brands were advertisements for "new" 4V models in aluminum in 1967 for Offenhauser and Weiand.
Does anybody out there have 1966 Edelbrock, Moon, Offenhauser, Weiand, or ? to consult?
One of the more interesting 1960s test comparisons I found and saved pitted a Edelbrock F4B intake and small Holley carburetor against a COBRA intake and Ford 4100 carburetor. Intakes were in out of the boxes condition. Ford 4100's won't seal on a Cobra intake with just a stock gasket. On the 1966 GT350s that used the combination a thin Bakelite spacer was required.
