Posts by rr64_old

For the 1967 season, Shelby American prepared some small number of Mustang race cars for Group II (Trans-Am) and Bud Moore did a few Cougars.

1) Does anybody here own one of these cars?

2) Did they leave Ford's plants as complete cars or bodies in white and if running cars did they have production HP289 engines?

I wonder about if these cars ever even for a day had production engines. The 1967 vintage material that Ford published and provided to racers for Group II cars (and GT40s) has a detailed parts list. Most of the race engine parts are ones I have only heard rumors of, you know bench racing legends. Many have C6FE or C7FE engineering number prefixes. (The cylinder heads, cylinder blocks, and camshafts are well known but I have never seen examples most of the others.)

Dan

Quote from CharlesTurner

It's a 4D1, let me know if you're interested.

I just sent you an e-mail. Thanks.

Dan

Thanks. I didn't pay attention and missed the April 19th intake sold on ebay® recently.

Dan

Still seeking any or all of these items.

Thanks.

Dan

Quote from 289route66

These C3RA-14225-A emblems just sold on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/…13427&rd=1&rd=1

They are not original 1960s Ford ones. Check out the pictures in my 11/22/06 post.

Originals have

1) A rough stippled background that simulates a sand cast texture.

2) Color fields were spray painted using masks to protect fields that didn't get particular color. All the paint is very thin and misses some small areas shadowed by the masks or raised details.

3) Has not only a registered Ford trade mark logo but also the trade mark logo of the supplier that made them.

4) Are usually rougher all over, especially around the outer edge, than all counterfeits.

Then ones auctioned show

1)Smooth background.

2)Apparently hand painted details with very thick paint wicking up the sides of raised details.

3) Does not have the Ford or supplier trade marks, also lettering present does not match originals.

4) The casting and plating appear much smoother than the hundreds of originals examined since circa 1972.

Quote from billh

As I remember it, the roads back then were the width of two horses standing side by side. (My kids have accused me of being from a time when you started cars with a crank!)

Hey wait a second Bill. I started helping my Dad with Model A Fords when I was around five years old, I built up a 1933 Ford Phaeton chassis into a driveable roller for Dad when I was fifteen, and while I hunted my first car (which became a 1966 Mustang) when I was sixteen I drove a 1931 Model A Ford pickup truck to school and work. Occassionally for fun just to show people and sometimes out of necessity I hand cranked it to start. Dad's 1930 Model A Deluxe Phaeton (two door) is out in the garage as I type.

So, I resemble that "(My kids have accused me of being from a time when you started cars with a crank!)" slurr. I am not yet 53 years old yet either.

Dan

I have had my hands on three genuine Shelby supplied systems. Two of those systems suffered serious problems due to installation errors.

1) A very early real low serial number 48 IDA system. This one was supposed to have been removed circa 1967 and stored. The system was near mint except for some really strange jetting and air correctors on two cylinders on opposite sides of the intake. When the carburetors were removed for inspection and cleaning the original (unique – a particular brand marked gasket) base gaskets were almost still all in place. I said almost. The base gaskets for the two strangely jetted cylinders were sucked into the bores. These two cylinders had massive air leaks and large sections of gasket out in the flow path. Finding original gaskets in such a state makes me wonder how long the installer tuner fooled with the system before giving up.

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/Cylinder7.jpg]

2) I bought an early system for my car that was briefly used on another Cobra. Sometime in the very late 1970s or very early 1980s the system was reported to have been NOS when installed. It didn’t stay installed long. It probably didn’t run very well. This particular installation had someone leave two of the AN washers UNDER the base gasket on the outside of one carburetor. The gaskets were still the genuine Shelby OEM ones. With washers under the gasket on one side the carburetor was jacked up by the washer thickness on one side leaving a large pair of wedge shaped air gaps to leak. I wonder what this owner said of these horrible things because of an installation blunder.

I wonder how many horror stories about Webers on 289 engines are in fact testaments to how poor the installation was done. That is part one. Part two would be how cobbled up most non-factory linkages are.

Dan

Quote from Engineer

There is a set of period, NOS, Webers out of an estate (sale) posted on http://www.clubcobra.com . Look under parts for sale.

From the Club Cobra posting "The Webers are “481DA4 1L". The images show September 1970 or later bodies (different castings than earlier issues) and I believe but have no written documentation yet that the "1L" means ‘1971November’.

Ford/Shelby, per Shelby catalogs, sold the 48 IDA-1 models. Shelby started off with 48 IDA models first apparently as a handful of very early systems exist still with very low serial number IDA model carburetors. Most of the carburetors sold by Shelby’s companies are believed to have been 48 IDA-1 models. Some early systems exist that have a mixture of 48 IDA and 48 IDA-1 models on the same intake. This required the IDAs to be converted to IDA-1 specifications.

In 1965 Dean Moon's and Carroll Shelby's literature both say they sold 48 IDA-1s for 289 Fords. The carburetors examined to date traceable to these sources were serial numbered individually and have no date codes. (Which makes sense as a serial or a date would tell when they were made for warrantee reasons, no need for both. I believe date codes in lieu of serial numbers started in September 1970.) Dean Moon's literature says the 48 IDA-4 models were for other applications.

Evidence today suggests that 48 IDA-1s were not produced long if at all after Ford and Shelby parted company. The 1966 Shelby parts book claims that Shelby American was the sole source here for 48 IDA-1 models by that time even though Dean Moon had them too. The 48 IDA4 and now 48 IDA4R versions have been made at some rate since early 1965 and can be obtained now as currently made with various cost cutting changes versus old ones. Being in production at some rate for more than 40 years on and off means that most of the Webers of this style in use and for sale are some form of 48 IDA4 model.

It has taken me more than twenty years to accumulate what documentation I do have. Here are the documented IDA models to date and their relative scarcity in the market. (I have started a registry of the serial numbered IDA, IDA-1, and IDA4 models.)

48 IDA = rare

48 IDA-1 = uncommon

46 IDA-2 (not a typo 46 mm body) = extremely rare

46 IDA-3 (not a typo 46 mm body) = extremely rare

48 IDA4 = common

48 IDA4R = very common, purchase new

Based on unmolested systems found and various documents obtained Weber made the IDA series about like any other carburetor company, say Holley for example. Holley had many 415/4160 models and they all are very similar but they are not all the same flow rate nor have the same linkage levers etcetera. Weber appears to have been no different. Each of the models above were outfitted for different applications and all but the IDA4 and IDA4R are set up with different size chokes, calibrated parts, and levers. Unlike a Holley 4150/4160 series, the Weber IDA series units can be changed with interchangeable parts to be suitable flow size wise for almost any engine. This makes the easy to find 48 IDA4 models the almost universal unit.

Cheers.....

Dan

I believe a genuine 1966 GT350 version is on ebay® right now offered by acman63.

Just in case anybody would like to see the very first Cobra emblem

design up close, as supplied by AC Cars Ltd, I dug an original out yesterday to photograph.

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/S1CS-A.jpg]

S1CS-19523-A Emblem, Shelby AC Cobra (first winged)" – issued

1962, a “winged” oval as supplied by AC Cars and used mainly on

early Cobras completed on the east cost or the UK (counterfeits

are available in the restoration market but they use much different

paint colors inside the letters and do not have the 'snake skin'

relief details in the letters)

Mr. Shelby is reported to have disliked this design a lot and had the

S1CS-19523-B design shown above created to replace it. Mr. Brock

disliked the S1CS-19523-B design and it is reported he designed the

most widely recognized small red white and blue background design

to replace the S1CS-19523-B; originally the S1CS-19523-C part by

Shelby and later replaced by the C3RA design by Ford.

Dan

The going rate for genuine 1960s systems or parts thereof are very high. Sometime in the mid 1970s copies of the intakes and then current production carburetors hit the market and are still being offered by more than one vendor. The vast majority of carburetors for sale are marked 48 IDA4. Shelby, Ford, and Moon (for a while in 1965-66 at least) sold 48 IDA (very early) and 48 IDA1 units for 289 "COBRA" systems. Shelby's 1966 parts books claims they were the sole distributor for 48 IDA1 models. Recreating the linkage designs (more than one) Shelby and Ford used is almost as expensive as the carburetors as new old stock correct AN hardware and bearings for old aircraft make old car parts look like give aways.

Dan

Quote from billh

My two cents:

Very few 289 Cobras had the 715 and small letter Cobra intake. (I think the real number is under 5). THe earliest version of the 3259 is dated November 1965) All of the cars built in California for street use had to have a PCV system, the small letter Cobra intake had a pcv fitting on the back of the intake. An intake that does not have the PCV fitting was intended for the R-Models. Unmolested, these intake manifolds bring 1 to 2K.

Per the 1997 SAAC Registry just three very late finished Cobras came with a high rise intake and Holley carburetor. See the my picture post under the carburetor thread.

"November 1965"....I think you meant November 1964. There was, based on the ones found, a run of List-3259 units right after Christmas (4B5 date) 1964 that got used in production and Cobra CSX2555 was one of the cars that left SAI with one, I have CSX2555's carburetor. These early units have different parts than ones made just a month later. A couple of us have started a data base of casting and engineering numbers for individual parts when we find carburetors that have never been mixed macthed by owners / restorers. Some of the parts in an early List-3259 are the same ones used in an earlier List-2668. There were at least two main body castings for List-3259s and two at least for List-3259-1 by 1967. Holley's detailed break down lists several revision levels of the design just in 1966.

If you look at the intake picture you will notice the holes of the carburetor studs are offset to the rear. You can not just put a carburetor on this intake and use it, the throttle plates hit. I have seen just three of these and only held two in my hands. Two of them were removed per the seller from one of the three Cobras using them when some other induction system was installed. CSX2555 got a late 1967 version of the Holley 2-4V system when my carburetor was removed from it. All three of these really thin wall (can't be ported) intakes I have seen had the holes offset to the rear. I was told by one of the people that removed one of these intakes that there was a PCV spacer, a real thin one, that was wedge shaped between the intake and carburetor on the Cobra. I have no idea what that spacer was but I found a Ford phenolic one in junk yard that would do the job. With a thin spacer the throttles will open.

Dan

Real early COBRA high rise, reported to have come from one of the three Cobras factory equipped with them per SAAC Registry 1997. Note the rare machining connecting right and left sides, I have only seen three real early light weight thin wall castings with this machining.

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/MVC-006S.jpg]

Real early 1964 manufactured Holley List-3259. This one left SAI mounted on Cobra CSX2555.

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/MVC-003S.jpg]

Like everything else Shelby related there are evolutionary changes in both part types through the production era.

Dan

Never tried it on any Mustang but my favorite is a Boss 302 plate which is thin, a phenolic heat barrier, and has a long nipple coming out and angling about 45°. The plate can be installed in any of four directions to make your PCV connection either front or rear left or right. Using thin McCord brand gaskets (may not be available anymore??)I stilled used the studs that came from Shelby/Ford on the late over the counter S2MS universal intake (has the extra bosses behind the carburetor) COBRA intake.

Dan

Here's what the 2 9/16" S1CS-B part looks like that Mr. Brock disliked so much he created the familar smaller design.

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/S1CS-B.jpg]

A few years ago there was a magazine article on a Mustang outfitted with several Cobra kits very early in its history and that car was wearing two of these parts.

Dan

I have started looking for some parts for an early 1964 HP289.

2 each cylinder heads wanted, C40E-B dated 4C24 or 4C25

2 each fuel pumps, main 0-1576 casting 3623S model number

1 each 1-4V factory intake cast some time between April and May 1964

Nice to mint used cores desired but I am interested in anything useable.

Thanks for looking.

Dan

Quote from Beagle1

Now, the Cobra stickers that were on the boxes...I have two mint rather large ones in a plastic sleeve from Bob Ford in Dearborn, MI. Same thing, they were in a box that a tech back in the 60's opened to install one of the Cobra parts. Beagle1

Your uninstalled stickers are some of the rarer Cobra related bits you'll likely ever see. Congrat's.

I have put together a collection of an original example of every emblem used on street or works race Cobras and 427 Cobras except for the water slide decal for 289 race engines and the "AC" script emblem that COX and COB (Cobras made for sale outside the USA) Cobras used in Europe instead of "COBRA" emblems. Trying to obtain one of everything has been much more difficult, time consuming (I started in 1971), and costly than I ever imagined. Very many of the Cobra / 427 Cobra production parts were never made in large quantities and people have been grabbing up what was available for cars all these years to near totally deplete the loose few spares that were made.

Believe it or not most of what I have purchased has come from estate sales of Ford employees of the mid 1960s. The relatives liquidating estates often have no idea what they are selling and on ebay® mis-describe parts so badly that I am often the only bidder. Just a couple of years ago I bought a NOS pair of production S1CS-C emblems from an estate for way less than one reproduction C3RA-A part. They were advertised as 1965 Mustang GT Emlbems. I was the only bidder.

As more of the Ford performance enthusiasts of the 1960s pass on there is just no telling what will hit the market.

Dan

Original Ford C3RA-14225-A emblems are pretty crude when viewed close up and compared to the Shelby parts they were the replacements for. All the 1970s and later copies parts dealers have had made are visually higher quality. All originals show clear evidence of being made in one single cavity permanent mold. The appearance quality of both sides of the part degraded over the span of production and very late parts have very many visual defects, including incomplete filling of details on the front side. Images below show a NOS part from roughly middle of production based on mold condition.

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/C3RA-FRONT.jpg]

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/C3RA-REAR.jpg]

C3RA-19D531-A "kit" included with various "Cobra Kits" circa late 1965 onward.

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/C3RA-Pack1.jpg]

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/C3RA-Pack3.jpg]

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/C3RA-19D531-A.jpg]

Since this "kit" wasn't sold separately there was no description or part number on the package. The package contains two C3RA-14225-A emblems and two Tinnerman® brand rectangular put on nuts (in the second smaller envelope). (Please note that originals did not come in heat sealed plastic bags from Eurasia as offered on ebay® auctions as 'NOS' frequently.)

Note the paper COBRA sticker on the outer envelope. These stickers were not sold, the best I can tell. They just came on the outer package of any "Cobra Kit". I have seen original NOS parts still in their factory packages with these stickers on everything from a linkage kit for a Fairlane 3-2V linkage kit to a five bolt Cobra lettered scattershield. I bought a NOS "Cobra Kit" pressure plate and clutch for my 1965 GT350 I had in the 1970s and there were these sticker on those boxes, in fact I found the only stickers not attached to something I have ever seen in the disk's box. In that box was a torn off piece of roll fed label stock with two of these stickers still unused. An accident to be sure. There were more than one size of these stickers from pretty small to quite large on the scattershield box.

Dan

There was more than one “original” Cobra emblem as installed on Cobras or sold over the counter as accessories.

Information in print is scarce. What can be documented in parts lists or period new car photographs include:

(Quotes indicate wording directly from a Shelby American document.)

"S1CS-19523-A Emblem, Shelby AC Cobra (first winged)" – issued 1962, a “winged” oval as supplied by AC Cars and used mainly on early Cobras completed on the east cost or the UK (counterfeits are available in the restoration market)

"S1CS-19523-B Emblem, AC_Cobra 2 9/16" – issued 1963, a 2 9/16” round part contracted by Mr. Shelby locally and used on most west coast Cobras prior to at least CSX2132, a.k.a. flat head or worm head emblem, it is undocumented but believed a small number of these emblems were included in some induction kits (Webers for example) based reports from people that bought accessories for dealer installation on their new Fords in 1964 (counterfeits are available in the restoration market)

"S1CS-19523- Emblem, AC _Cobra" (the full part number is S1CS-19523-C but the C suffix is missing from the 1965 parts list) – issued 1963, a 2” round part as designed by Mr. Peter Brock for Cobras because of his dislike of the S1CS-19523-B part, it is undocumented but believed a small number of these emblems were included in some induction kits based reports from people that bought accessories for dealer installation on their new Fords in 1964-65 (no known counterfeits are available as of November 2006)

C3RA-14225-A “64/66 ALL 289/427” [“Roadsters”] – a 2” round version FoMoCo commissioned and made by one of their major suppliers. It is currently believed this part became available some time in 1966 as it is not mentioned in Shelby’s May 1965 parts book. (many different counterfeits are available in the restoration market)

Also interesting is that FoMoCo and SAI advertisements printed / published prior to about the beginning of 1966 show pictures or artistic renditions of the S1CS-C 2" part. An educated guess is that the C3RA-14225-A was developed by FoMoCo to fill the volume needed for sale in "Cobra Kits" starting in early 1966. The emblems were included by 1966 in and as part of a variety of over-the-counter "Cobra kits" and a pair of emblems was the "Medallion [kit] C3RA-19D531-A". As far as I have documented the C3RA-19D531-A "kit" was only included as part of larger "Cobra Kits" and not sold individually; a pair came in a package without any identification other that the universal Cobra Kit identification decal. Individual emblems were available as service parts under their C3RA-14225-A number. FoMoCo and SAI sold or supplied the C3RA-A parts in large quantities apparently, not the 100 sets a year like Cobra production, based on availability today. Another educated guess is that C3RA-A emblems started being used in 1966 Cobra 427 production as soon as the supply of S1CS-C 2" parts ran out, some unrestored 427 Cobras still wear faded C3RA-A emblems.

Shelby's company also offered large metallized "COBRA" decals as an accessory (thought to be part number SSCB-19511-B in the 12-23-66 catalog). Some factory works race cars wore these large decals on their front instead of any metal emblem.

I could not find the picture again but I believe there is one more emblem, a water slide decal actually. I believe there is a picture in one of Mr. Fredman’s (spelling ?) books that shows a rectangular label on the exterior body of a works racer that says “COBRA”. It looks like the water slide decal some Shelby competition engines had on their valve covers.

So, tallying this up, there were at least six (6) different COBRA lettered parts used on exterior body work of Cobra and 427 Cobras by Shelby’s works 1962-1967.

It has taken me since 1971 to do it but I have made a collection of one each of these original parts except the water slide decal. I have an excellent copy of a water slide decal courtesy of the owner of an ex-works racer that went to the trouble to create some in the smallest detail for his old SAI team car decades ago. Original examples of normal production street Cobra part in all but the C3RA-A emblems are extremely rare not on a Cobra, in any condition now.

As you may have noticed, most of these parts have been ‘reproduced’, a terrible description for what is out there. None of these copies are very close to an original part if you have an original part to compare to. The best copies I have seen were made by a jeweler as commissioned by the owner of an early 260 powered Cobra after somebody stole one of his “Shelby-AC-Cobra” emblems at an event. I bought my first counterfeit circa 1971 from J.C. Whitney’s. This catalog outfit advertised ‘original’ Cobra emblems, so I ordered two for my Mustang. (Dummy me didn’t realize the C3RA-A parts could be purchased locally at the Ford dealer still.) What arrived was cheap junk, poorly cast, poorly plated, and poorly painted on an adhesive back. I didn’t discard them until 2000 when we boxed up and moved to our present home. A few of years later a group of parts dealers selling parts to the Mustang hobby (you do remember the Maier Racing article that kicked off the dress your Mustang in Shelby items rage don’t you) commissioned a “reproduction” of the C3RA-A part, a decade later a copy of the copy was reproduced. These days there are several companies that have used their own tooling to create their own versions of the C3RA-A part, some even have a Ford part number on their backs.

Dan