Posts by rr64_old

rr64_old · R model moter info. rr64_old February 21, 2010 at 5:33 AM

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Anyone you know teardown an original Shelby Race motor and check any of those original cams?<img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=images/icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

I do not. I personally know of only one Shelby 'race' engine that may be intact from day one. A friend has an early Cobra that was raced early on. When the HP260 was not enough the owner at the time purchased a race HP289 engine from Shelby and installed it. I never heard of that engine being removed for any reason and the car has not been driven much in decades. I don't think it has been started at all in about a dozen years. I have been after him to get the car running again so maybe one day he will remove the engine for rebuilding and I can see what is inside.

It was a race engine but that in itself doesn’t mean much because Shelby sold several different levels of race engine from mildly worked over stock HP289 to full of modifications including Webers and roller tappet camshaft. In 1963 and starting into 1964 even the full specification team Cobra racers with Webers used the stock HP289 camshafts. Engine modifications evolved over time.

rr64_old · R model moter info. rr64_old February 19, 2010 at 3:44 AM

Shelby sold lots of 'race' cams with advertised lifts of 0.485, 0.500, 0.508, and 0.522. They were mostly flat tappet but some roller too but those legends of old says independents never got exactly what team cars used.

I don't know about GT350 racers all that much but I have studied the Cobras a lot. For Cobras many 'race' parts Shelby sold retail were a little different to very much different than what was used on works team cars.

rr64_old · bf32 with star rr64_old February 17, 2010 at 4:29 PM

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Looking for a set of original bf32's with the star logo

thanks for looking

If anybody has a set of early three rib insulator BF32s they will trade for the later five rib "star" versions, please contact me.

Dan

Edited by - rr64 on 02/17/2010 16:29:40

rr64_old · 63 4 barrel intake manifolds rr64_old February 7, 2010 at 3:02 PM

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rr64.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>If you come across one of the SK or XE Cobra intakes or the XE cylinder heads that were also used please get pictures to share and as much history as possible.

check this site out for XE 63' 289 hipo, you may have seen this before here on ekschange.

Qball

http://www.fordsmallblock.com/PDF/Prototype-1965-HiPo.pdf

Thanks. I have that site saved as a favorite already. I believe that is a prototype for 1965 production. I seek information on pre-production 1963 designs. I got to see preproduction rods, intake, and cylinder heads (ex-early Cobras) a couple of years ago but I didn't have a camera handy.

rr64_old · 63 4 barrel intake manifolds rr64_old February 7, 2010 at 1:33 PM

Most early 260 powered Cobras had Ford produced iron 4V intakes but they were not standard Ford production intakes. The first customer street Cobras were finished in July 1962 in the 1963 model year. A friend's Cobra finished some time in January 1963 received a Cobra HP260 engine with a "XE" iron intake.

If you come across one of the SK or XE Cobra intakes or the XE cylinder heads that were also used please get pictures to share and as much history as possible.

rr64_old · 63 4 barrel intake manifolds rr64_old February 7, 2010 at 4:55 AM

Ford offered a 4V induction kit including a cast iron intake, spacer, Autolite® 4100 carburetor, and chrome top air cleaner 1963-64 until at least the COBRA® high rise aluminum intake and Holley® for Mustang GT350® cars came out circa January 1965. The old magazine adds offered cylinder heads, engine hop up kits, dual point distributors, several induction systems, and various other performance and dress up accessories. I don’t how far back in time they started offering the iron intake upgrade kit. There is a FoMoCo® credited image on the 4V kit on page I-24 of Mr. Mannel’s book. Ford and Shelby both promoted performance and appearance upgrades heavily.

Edited by - rr64 on 02/07/2010 05:01:34

rr64_old · R model moter info. rr64_old February 6, 2010 at 7:41 AM

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Going from memory so please correct me if I'm wrong, here are a few more changes done to at least some cars:

- Larger Holley 3255 carb, 780 cfm.

- R-Model intakes were not drilled for PCV vaccum fittings.

- Valve covers were standard steel units, each had a breather cap tube

- Electric fuel pumps

- Different camshaft?

- R-3255 carburetor: SAI installed ? Who knows? I have heard that but never seen a period picture of one in use that I recall. A 715 cfm model would have been plenty capacity wise. Engines might have been homologated with them as an option as they were for the Edlebrock® 2-4V cross ram induction and 180° ‘megaphone’ headers. Old SAAC publications indicated that the 2-4V and 180º headers were put in the list of options but I don’t recall ever seen anything that noted anybody getting them on a new race car. Even if the installer removes all the features of the R-3255 for its 427 Ford O.E. application the air bleeds drilled into each bore near the venturi are real easy to spot even in poor photographs. I don’t recall seeing any new GT350 racer images showing holes in the sides of carburetors. If you have a new car pre-first owner shot showing air bleeds in the sides of the carburetor please share.

- Intakes: Correct based on what I have experienced. Road race (and the drag race ‘DRAG’ stamped retail intakes) Didn’t get PCV, water temperature sensor, or heater hose ports drilled. Those ports weren’t needed.

- Valve covers: Correct. I over-looked the obvious, sorry. SAI started modifying O.E. steel valve covers almost as soon as the first Cobra hit the race track. There were several versions done in different time frames. I suspect that most later differences were due to who made them up. I have a few copies SAI race shop drawings and it is instantly clear there is not enough information on the drawings to be able to recreate parts from. The drawings that I have copies are more like guidelines. Fabricators did what they needed to get the job done. Dave Friedman published a picture of the engine in CSX2323 in Europe in early 1964 that shows valve covers modified into what has become known as “GT350R” covers long before the first GT350 was even dreamed of.

- Electric fuel pump(s): Correct but not really part of the engine. The standard practice for most SAI race cars 1963-65 was to use one or more electric pumps near the fuel tank to push fuel forward to O.E. mechanical pumps on the engines. This use to be a very common practice for all kinds of competition cars no matter who built them if the sanctioning body rules required the used on ‘stock’ fuel pumps. The legendary ‘FIA’ team Cobras that raced the world’s best still had plain Fairlane mechanical fuel pumps on their engines in 1965 based on old photos.

- Camshaft(s): Oops, another obvious miss on my part. Unsubstantiated legends are all that I know but old magazine articles from the period indicated than Engle® custom ground camshafts for SAI depending on what they wanted at the time of order. “Shelby” camshafts are very confusing as between 1963 and 1970 so many different grinds were offered through the SAI/Ford parts program. I have a spreadsheet where I have collected published data by retail part number or Ford part number. My list has eight ( different grinds under seventeen (17) different part numbers. Example, the O.E. HP289 grind is listed these different ways

C3OZ-6250-C Ford

S1CR-6250-D (GT350 street) Shelby

93219 Shelby/Honest Charlie 1967½ road race

GFJD-6250-A Shelby road race

FBE-1225-B Moon 1968 road race

rr64_old · Shelby Oil Pump Modification rr64_old February 4, 2010 at 3:38 AM

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Dan, Is that bracing on the oil pump pickup part of a race Cobra modification as well? A friend of mine has a pickup like that and we are both unsure as to what it is for.

-Fred-

Hi Fred,

Yes. Based on long ago magazine articles and Shelby American correspondence with racers, road racing Cobras had pickup/pump breakage early on so pickups were fully gusseted and a brace was added to dampen out vibrations of the assembly. AN aircraft bolts (safety wired) held it all together. The brace goes to a main cap bolt. I have not figured out what kind of main cap bolt but rumor says it was a truck part something like a 1969 Boss 302 main bolt for windage tray attachment. The head has to be shorter than a 1970 Boss 302 main bolt for a windage tray because I bought one of those and the head is too tall. I have not found a 1969 Boss 302 bolt to test fit, I am told they are shorter.

The pump that I have is said to have left SAI on a brand new GT350 racer. The man that owned the car a long time ago when this pump was removed kept it until I got it. The pump and pickup were still bolted together when I got it if you want to see an image.

I hope to reconstruct/rebuild this pump (new rotor, stator, and valve) and use it. Somewhere in its long idle time it got wet inside so the steel internal parts are ruined except for the spring and shim. I wonder if any of the pump shops that prepare new custom pumps could/would test it for me once it is back together.

I bought a NOS rotor and stator just before Christmas but the USPS managed to get the box soaked, which then fell apart, and then it appears the rotor got bounced off some concrete and was ruined. The whole mess was in a USPS plastic bag (soaking wet) with an apology for any inconvenience printed on the bag. (The USPS has enough “oops” incidents that they have printed salvage bags on hand….never knew that.)

Dan

Edited by - rr64 on 02/04/2010 03:40:35

Edited by - rr64 on 02/04/2010 03:43:08

rr64_old · Shelby Oil Pump Modification rr64_old February 3, 2010 at 4:58 PM

Shelby American modified stock 260/289 oil pumps for racing by adding a 0.200 inch thick shim behind the internal relief valve springs. This was done for race Cobras and later racing GT350s.

My question is, have any forum members done this themselves and determined what affect (how much did hot oil pressure increase) the shim had on the relief pressure of the valve?

Dan

[Blocked Image: http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r187/rr64/IMG_1559-Copy.jpg]

Edited by - rr64 on 02/03/2010 17:37:55

Edited by - rr64 on 02/03/2010 18:42:25

Edited by - rr64 on 02/03/2010 18:43:04

rr64_old · hipo automatic C-4's rr64_old November 29, 2009 at 4:36 PM

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Dick R. owns CSX2580 which was factory completed with an automatic transmission. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Dick responded that the transimssions were for the 1965 model year of HP289 Fairlane with C4. His original engine is a six bolt HP289 and that should be the norm for Cobras with automatics.

Edited by - rr64 on 11/29/2009 17:14:11

rr64_old · hipo automatic C-4's rr64_old November 29, 2009 at 11:49 AM

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I would be reasonably sure that all of the factory 289 automatic Cobras had 5-bolt blocks, and the same HiPo C4 tranny as the '64-65 Fairlanes (except for a Mustang style floor shift).

regards,

Jeff

Dick R. owns CSX2580 which was factory completed with an automatic transmission. Based on his e-mails on the subject his original engine has a six bolt block. I have never spent much time investigating the automatic transmission cars because now even if they have automatics they aren't usually the one the car was shipped with. Quite a few Cobras don't have their original engines or transmissons. I just sent Dick an e-mail to see what other information on the automatic transmission equipped cars he might have. Cobras assembled after August 1964 had all kinds of oddities. The invoice for one car sold new mid 1965 indicated it had full competition "Mustang" 289 engine in it for example. Mike G. still has an original automatic transmission Cobra. I just called him and he is sure that it is a six bolt engine original to his car. Six bolt is what I expect for factory automatics in cars completed after August 1964.

It would be great to find a unmolested group of 1-4V Cobras finished after August 1964 to get a look at the engine tags. The only car that I know of that fits that description is a four speed car with a manual transmission. Cars that got 2-4Vs at SAI or aftermarket inductions any time later seem to have lost their engine tags.

Edited by - rr64 on 11/29/2009 12:56:20

rr64_old · hipo automatic C-4's rr64_old November 28, 2009 at 1:34 PM

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1964 Fairlanes were available with a 289 Hipo and C4 automatic trans.

-Fred-

Thanks. I don't think I have seen one of them. Where was the shift lever?

rr64_old · hipo automatic C-4's rr64_old November 28, 2009 at 11:02 AM

How about the C4s installed in Cobras, where they special units too? Roughly 30 Cobras completed after August 1964 received automatic transmissions. Scant information uncovered leads me to believe the engines were six bolt HP289s assembled to Mustang chassis specifications except for getting outfited for automatic transmissions. Of that small number originally delivered with automatic transmissions just a few are believed to have their original transmissions still. When did the high performance version of the C4 automatic get introduced?

rr64_old · 93 Octane Pump Gas rr64_old November 28, 2009 at 6:29 AM

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what additive do you use ?

Z. Ray

I have tried several different ones but I like one best and I think it is one of two products from one company. Before I make a mistake I'll go out an look at one of the bottles before saying which one.

rr64_old · 93 Octane Pump Gas rr64_old November 28, 2009 at 6:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> RR64, In fact I think we spoke in person the year you "traded" 2 cars for your Cobra. If it was you that is. Seem to remember you were cleaning it for the Sunday show when we spoke. As I remember it was an AWESOME car!<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Good memory, I actually just used my Boss 429 in trade (see orange car on the cover story December MM). A friend and I drove the Boss 429 from Decatur Alabama to Vinita Oklahoma one day and then drove the Cobra back home then next. Two twelve hour road trips back to back with staying up pretty much all night talking parts and cars with Jim and Terry Wicks. Yes, you can sleep in a Cobra (riding passenger) while on the move.

I separated myself from this list of vehicles to end up buying Cobra CSX2310.

Model Model V.I.N.

Year Designation

1965 GT350 SFM5S446

1965 GT350 SFM5S142

1965 Falcon Ranc. 5H27T145793

1966 GT350 SFM6S2070

1967 GT500 67402F8A00468

1969 GT350 (Hertz ?) 9F02M481476

1969 BOSS 302 9F02G189080

1970 BOSS 302 0F02G160803

1970 BOSS 429 0F02Z124202

1970 BOSS 302 0F02G126674

rr64_old · 93 Octane Pump Gas rr64_old November 27, 2009 at 4:49 PM

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Thanks Guys for your replies!!

I think I'm going to take rr64s advise and put at the very least some commercial octane booster in my 93 octane Sunoco gasoline.

or possibly get a gallon or 2 of Sunoco racing fuel that we have here locally-its about 8.50 per gallon.

Your fuel requirements depend a lot on how the vehicle is used. If you are going to drive over to the next town for a show and run at posted speed limits you can get by with lower octane. If you are going to run wide open throttle corner to corner in an open track event for 30 minutes at a time I would run straight racing fuel. Shelby American kept their SCRs low and their cam shafts mild for internation racing and generally didn't run over 6,000 rpm because they had no idea what kind or how bad the fuel the European tracks would have available. If they could race in Europe on crummy fuel with SCRs around 10.5:1 you should be fine on today's premium unless you are doing "spirited" driving. I run additive because I am likely to run my Cobra wide open throttle at any time.

rr64_old · 93 Octane Pump Gas rr64_old November 27, 2009 at 9:07 AM

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Can I expect my K engine to run as is was ment to on todays 93 octane pump gas?

It was completely rebuilt to stock specs (had to be bored .030) and heads were cut about .015, other than that its all stock.

I don't plan on any all out racing or anything like that, just some spirited driving on Sunday afternoons.

Not exactly the same but my black Cobra's HP289 engine had its heads milled in the 1960s (a very common occurrence). The heads are the small chamber small valve 1963 design. Nothing is ported. I measured, "cc'd", everything when I overhauled the engine in circa 1986 and came up with just under 11.5:1 static compression ratio. The engine still has its original HP289 cam, standard bore, and is stock specifications otherwise except for the COBRA KIT 1-4V induction system and later C5 design distributor. I run 36° total advance at the factory recommended curve and the exhaust is its stock original back to the mufflers. The engine normally runs around 180°F to 200°F in the summer and cooler in milder weather. I have never checked hot compression.

93 octane (any brand) fuel without ethanol runs just fine until about 5,000 rpm. I will start getting preignition break up about that time unless I either run an additive or high octane racing fuel. The engine was optimized years ago for doing open track events at the Tulsa Mid-America event. In that configuration it had a K&N filter element, K&N “stub stack”, BTF1 or BF12 racing spark plugs, and highly leaded racing fuel in the 110 or higher octane level. With that set up running 7,000 plus down the straights was no problem. For street and play, putting a gallon or so of NASCAR leaded racing fuel in a tank of 93 octane street fuel made a big difference, 7,000 rpm short runs being no problem. In lieu of the racing fuel as additive I have also used commercial octane boosters. With 91-93 octane fuels believed to contain ethanol I still use the commercial octane booster, a lead substitute, and a fuel stabilizer (since I don’t get to drive the car as much as I wish). I was running through the gears into the 7,000 rpm range at Bearun at SAAC-34 during this summer and detected no issues.

The static compression ratio (SCR) “as built” is not the one that always gets you into trouble long term. Cylinder pressure when running is a major player. It is determined by not only SCR with every other variable that affects cylinder filling, air fuel ratio, mix quality, ignition timing, ignition efficiency, ring seal, valve seal to head seat quality, et ectera. Fuel producers include detergents in their blends but they are not all the same or were they even meant to. A marine engine has different considerations than an aircraft which has different ones from cars and trucks. Running a high ash fuel with a meets minimum requirements detergent package can lead to a signifciant layer of carbon and ash on every fixed surface inside the combustion chambers and exhaust ports. I am sure you have seen ash fouled spark plugs come from some type engine, now imagine that layer everywhere inside the combustion chambers. Thick deposits in chambers do a couple of significant things, one the raise your SCR because deposits reduce the chamber volume. Thicker deposits mean more volume loss. The other is create irregular surfaces with raised protections that can become red hot during high load engine conditions. These hot spots can ignite the air fuel mix in the chambers before the spark plug does. The SCR that was okay when you built the engine may be more significant later, so keep that in mind. Changes you may make over time that affect running cylinder pressure should also be considered.

My old BOSS 429 did not run well at all on anything less than 110 octane fuel but so far all my HP289 cars (formerly 1965 GT350, formerly 1966 GT350, currently Cobra) have done acceptably octane wise during ordinary street cruising with whatever I found at the pump. For high load high rpm play, especially during an open track road course event I would recommend doing something to increase your octane rating.

rr64_old · Calling all June 64 K's. rr64_old November 26, 2009 at 6:26 AM

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Yes collecting this info can be allot of work but hopefully will bring some answers or at least a better understanding. Have a spread sheet for all years all plants - doing about the same thing

By chance do you have any information on five and six bolt HP289s engines assembled between 4H25 and 4H28. There were two batches of engines, one five bolt and one six bolt, showing up in Cobras from that period.

5-bolt HP289 engine for Cobra CSX2551

C4OE-6015F engine block, casting date 4F4, block machining date 4H25B

C4OE-6059A timing cover, 64 with 8 dots casting date

C3OE B harmonic balancer, G4 date

C4OE-6059A water pump casting date 64 with 7 dots

5-bolt HP289 engine for a sister Cobra (engine number just 16 units different)

C5OF-E distributor, dated 4HB

C5OE-A /A 4V intake, date 4H6

Engine assembly date looks like 4H28 (which is consistent with other known engines in Cobras)

Edited by - rr64 on 11/26/2009 06:30:05

rr64_old · What Is This Engine? rr64_old November 20, 2009 at 5:52 PM

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A friend of mine has a 289 5 bolt block, C4OE-6015-C, cast 3L21, with an unusual assembly date stamped on the boss by the distributor of 025 over "S M C" with the M having "legs" under both the S and C. We think it's a Cobra block. Can someone verify this?

Jim

HP289 engines in all but the last roughly 60 street Cobras were based on all physical evidence discovered so far regular production HP289 Fairlane engines and as such are marked just like them and nothing else. All other markings are most likely post production for reasons now lost to time. The heads on the genuine out of a Cobra engine on the stand here right now are stamped, one each LEFT and RIGHT but that was no doubt done long ago (this engine has not been run since circa 1968) when someone worked on the engine. Even a couple of works race cars that still have their original engines that someone has sent me data on have engines that started their days as standard Fairlane HP289s assembled by Ford.

The only way to confirm that a block was used in a Cobra would be compare the Ford block serial number to the one listed on the invoice for the Cobra between Shelby and the selling dealer or on the foot box tag for chassis CSX2201 and later.

Dan

rr64_old · Old Friend's 1966 Coupe, Still Around? rr64_old November 14, 2009 at 7:49 AM

Yesterday I was visiting with an old friend whose current status does not allow for playing with old cars. We talked about cars each of us had at one time. He had several Mustangs that he played with, did a little drag racing just to see what it was like, and did some trading around based on whims of the day. He even had a 1967 GT350 for a while. The car we did a driven category restoration on was a 1966 coupe in ember glow colors. It was a beautiful car when done. I think one of my metal trash cans is still mostly that color. I think he drove it from Huntsville Alabama to the Pensacola Florida Mustang show twice. That was a lot of work and fun as he would partially dismantle the car in my garage to clean it up and touch up things prior to the show and then do the whole process over again when he got back from the show. One year it rained on him all the way back and he pretty much completely dismantled the undercarriage and removed the exhaust system to get every piece back into show condition again.

The chassis number he has recorded per yesterday’s conversation is 6F07K245806. By chance does a member of this forum own this car? Bill and I would be interested in determining if the old car is still intact.