Posts by Dan Case

  • Hipo carb and Distributor tag question

    Ford 2V (2100-A series*) and 4V (4100-A series**) carburetors in the mid to late 1960s all had assembly tags with the engineering number, design level, and year-month-week of manufacture.

    Ignition distributors in new 1960s cars were die stamped on their main bodies with their engineering number and date code so had no identification tags.

    * There was a Ford Motor Company designed Holley® made 2V carburetor made for flat head Ford engines under as a 2100 Series model long before the Ford 2100-A Series. The two designs are very different in design appearance and parts. Some functional parts in 1960s Ford carburetors were ones that evolved from carburetors for flat head Fords decades before.

    ** As I know them and think I understand them, the 4100 Series was created by Ford to use instead of the Ford-Holley 4000 Series in the mid-1950s. The very first Ford 4100 models share features with some of the first Ford-Holley 4150/4160 carburetors, including removable brass plugs in the sides of fuel bowls to inspect fuel levels while the engines were idling. By the 1960s the 4100-A Series had evolved a lot with many subsystem design changes.

  • C6ZF Carb Assembly Dates

    Gathering detailed information for everything I can helps functional and appearance work. This is a C4OF-9510-AT carburetor for June-July 1964 Fairlanes, 1965 Fairlanes, and 1965 Cobras with 289 High Performance engines made to use with automatic transmissions. I cleaned parts, obtained original pieces to replace missing one, and recreated the best I could the paint daubs and grease pencil inspection marks lost during cleaning. The air cleaner stud is a new old stock one the car owner sent me. (No hard media blasting or harsh chemicals were used to service this carburetor.)

    LH side.JPG

    Having data on what it was like originally helped in repairs and verified that details like economy valve channel jets had not been drilled out.

  • C6ZF Carb Assembly Dates

    In general, in many Ford 2100/4100-A models some parts changed over time and inspection markings changed over time. Main body and air horn castings were not all the same. Materials of construction of some parts changed. In some models, some calibrated air and fuel orifices changed over time (not main jets so far).


    The 1963-64 HP289 model I have studied the most was used for right at a 12 month period covering portions of two car model years and in that time several different versions were made including things like balance tube air jet sizes and economy valve channel fuel jet sizes. In one service replacement group the primary auxiliary booster assemblies were different.


    New old stock anything is usually self-evident. Where collected data comes in handy helping owners with a) a carburetor that has been remanufactured one to several times, b) carburetors that were owner modified decades ago, c) carburetors that were robbed of parts, or d) carburetors that have been assembled from whatever parts somebody was able locate.


    As a general statement, does not apply to every carburetor shop, remanufactures and some that claim to be restorers tend to scramble parts without much regard for how the carburetor in their care was made originally. Example: Using a 1965 model year design primary throttle shaft assembly to repair a 1963 model year carburetor.


    Not every owner cares about original details but some do and they appreciate having somebody to help evaluate what they have or might be planning on buying. Original parts, even common ones, in great condition can be hard to come up with and expensive to pay for. At times prepurchase home work and saves lots of resources in the long run.


    I started my C6ZF-9510-C and C6ZF-9510-F units data collection to help friends with 1966 MUSTANG GT350s that original were fit with Ford 4100-A carburetors.


    To date, car owners, parts dealers, and one carburetor shop have helped the data collection process by providing in focus good to high resolution digital pictures of units they have in hand from many angles. I have not had anyone use precision pin gauges to measure balance tube, secondary vacuum passage bore, accelerator pump killer bleed, or economy valve channel fuel jets yet in the 1966-67 C6ZF-9510-C and C6ZF-9510-F models yet . I have done such measuring for C3OF-AJ and C4OF-AL models.

  • C6ZF Carb Assembly Dates

    A is your assembly design level 5HE is the assembly date code. Information I collected when I did my survey shown below in graphic form. I am interested in details. I collect information in a large spreadsheet on running changes of small parts and any step changes like between Level A and Level B.


    temp.jpg

  • Carburetor recommendation

    Lots of Ford 4100-A assemblies would bolt on. They will:


    1. not have the same air fuel ratio curves under all conditions as a factory HP289 specific assembly. Ford created different balance tube orifice sizes and different economy valve channel jet sizes as part of the customization for each application. Some of the auxiliary venturi assemblies for HP289 applications are very hard to come up with. Main jets are cheap and readily available.
    1. not have timing and opening rate of secondary throttle the same as a stock HP289 specific assembly unless somebody has already worked on the timing of events. Most 1.12 size units I have tested open the secondary way too soon and way too fast for even a hot rodded 289 c.i.d. engine. The timing can be changed but without some kind of test procedure each attempt would be a guess to go driving and test. A common complaint for any 289 c.i.d. engine with any 1.12 sized unit is the secondary working too soon and bogging the engine. That includes models that Ford installed some kind of flow control in that are now missing the part or parts, which is very common. I had one 1963 model with a pressed in 0.044” brass orifice, a small flow check ball, a copper-bronze compression spring, and a spring retainer pressed in. It was the slowest to open 1.12 sized unit I ever tested and Ford used them on two engines and one was a semi-production High Performance 260 engine. I had one and have seen one other.


    Ford 4100-A models can be tuned, requires parts changes sometimes or requires part modifications sometimes, to work on just about any engine between 260 c.i.d. and 428 c.i.d. and Ford did just that. That is why there are many pages of carburetor assemblies for different engine and vehicle applications. I no idea who commercially does complete conversions of every functional detail to HP289 specifications. Henry in Portland Oregon might be someone to ask what he can or will do.

  • holley 1850s

    Before changing anything carburetor related, I would check the ignition system. Three owners of Ford performance cars suddenly had faltering engines and all three found problems with ignition points and condensers; two of them had points gaps too small and one had screws holding points not much more than finger tight.

    Otherwise problems with excessive wear in distributor bushings (plain bearings for the shaft), excessive gap between rotor tip and cap electrodes in some brands of caps and rotors, incorrect timing advance curve, cracked distributor caps, spark plug wire issues, and problem(s) the might prevent ignition timing advance have resulted in carburetors that were working well to be rebuilt needlessly or replaced.

    One situation that can happen with manual chokes is installing the cable without some slack after the plate is closed. If the cable is just barely getting the choke plate closed engine vibration, road shocks, or engine movement during acceleration can partially close the choke. If the engine is running great and suddenly falters during acceleration, push on the choke knob to verify that the choke has not partially closed.

  • NOS B6A 12029 A Ignition Coil

    I am not Fred but consider from my perspective:

    1) I would not believe a coil sent to a test lab was boxed in a retail sale package. Said another way, does the box shown really belong with that part? (I worked in a Fortune 500 company manufacturing 37 years and electrical parts we sent to HQ for testing were not packed for retail sale for the trip. In fact, none of our parts from an assembly plant were in retail sale packages. None of the leftover 1960s Ford assembly line parts I have ever seen or purchased were in a retail sale pack.)


    2) If the mold used to make a preproduction sample was not approved for production (engineers and lawyers agreed) I could imagine the mold cavities were not fully detailed yet. In the industry I worked in details like mold numbers, cavity numbers, and or engineering numbers were not added to molds until the parts they made were approved for release to production. It takes labor time to put numbers in molds and if there are multiple cavities more time. In our business there was no one wanting to pay for the text details until the function of the part was approved. I do not know what Ford's supply train did, but the practice in industry of late identification was widespread at least until 2014 when I retired.

    3) “7” as a model year along with an oval FoMoCo® logo. All kinds of situations come to mind:

    - Maybe a 1957 prototype or preproduction sample from new tooling, plant, and or supplier. “7” does not have to mean 1967. The design came out for the 1956 model year I believe.

    - Service part markings were not always exactly like parts made to produce new cars.

    - Sample parts made for evaluation were not always marked just like new car parts.

    - Or ? We could speculate on many possibilities for a "test" part.

  • Very Early 289 Block - Info Needed!

    Trivia.

    Ford made prototype High Performance 289 engines and had them in test vehicles in September and October 1962; including at least one four bolt main block variant. Every once in a while a used prototype type part from that time frame finds its way to market still.


    A very few preproduction High Performance 289 engines were made in time for the first new street car installation known before January 18, 1963 in a Cobra. Two more preproduction engines were modified by Shelby American and installed in Cobras CSX2002 and CSX2026 in time for them to being racing with the new engine March 2, 1963 and be announced as such in magazine coverage.


    Indications are that mass production of High Performance 289 engines started March 1, 1963 and engines of that date ended up in Cobras. CSX2126, a prototype and development Cobra, still has a single digit serial number engine manufactured March 1. The next data point I have came from Bob Mannel is engine number 66 manufactured March 7 installed in a Fairlane.


    To answer the original poster’s question, I would say a block cast in December 1962 is pretty rare. Is there an engine assembly date stamped on it? (in front of left cylinder bank)


    Potential interest might be from the owner of any car without its original engine around the assembly date of that engine plus a few weeks. There might even be a Cobra owner out there somewhere (I have one in mind.) that might be interested in an early dated cylinder block.


    Dan

    If anybody has any High Performance 289 specific dated parts made before early February 1963, I would like to hear from you? Carburetors and intake manifold dates are of particular interest.

  • C4OF-AL Carburetor

    Quote from Math

    So this carb is a not good one for a hipo kcode, 4 speeds?

    That depends on what you mean. To add to Fred's comments, the C5OF-L carburetor assembly was created for 1965 Fairlanes and Mustangs with manual transmissions and a road draft tube for crankcase ventilation in states that did not require a Positive Crankcase Ventilation (PCV) system. Bob Mannel published that road draft tube vented engines were phased out around or after March 1965. The C5OF-L model could be retuned to suit most stock and modified 260/289/non-Boss 302 engines and vehicle applications. In that sense, it could be tuned to work very well for any High Performance 289 engine or transmission type and or differential gear set.

    With a 4LA dated assembly tag it was probably factory installed in a Mustang or Fairlane with manual transmission and road draft tube crankcase ventilation completed as a running vehicle between sometime in the second half of December 1964 through maybe February 1965.

  • "The date code stamp on the oil pan sealing surface is actually the machining date of the block after the casting and before the assembly date"

    It would not be for 1962-64. Later year engines, I do not recall as I have not had one apart in four decades.

    The image below shows a section of pan rail for a High Performance 289 Cylinder Block Assembly. The 4H25 B date indicates that the raw block was selected, machined, and main bearing caps were added 1964 August 25. The "4H" is was very faintly stamped and can be read easier in a larger file size. In this case the 4 and 4 stamped in overlap are not part of the date code. The engine was assembled in Cleveland the next day 4H26.

    Date string:

    cylinder block casting date = 4G3, 1964 July 3rd

    cylinder block assembly date = 4H25, 1964 August 25th

    engine assembly date = 4H26, 1964 August 26th

    Also:

    Intake manifold casting date = 4G3, 1964 July 3rd

    CSX2535blockDATE - Copy.JPG

    It is worth noting that cylinder block assemblies used for service work and or sold over the counter 1962-64 had cylinder block assembly dates but not engine assembly dates.

  • Hipo carburetor tag

    Quote from pr1961

    Looking for a original Hipo carburetor tag for my 12/22/64 convertible thanks Paul.

    The key date for any engine component installed by the Cleveland engine plant, that includes carburetors, is the engine assembly date and not the scheduled build date of a vehicle the engine was installed in. The actual build date of a vehicle was not always the scheduled date and could be days or weeks later in worst cases.


    Carburetor wise, a batch of carburetors normally took at least three weeks and as long as several months to get from carburetor assembly operations to a new engine build in Cleveland Ohio depending on many factors. Once the engine was made, groups were gathered and shipped to vehicle assembly plants. Depending on how far the vehicle assembly plant was from Cleveland Ohio there might be a week to several weeks between when an engine left the assembly final inspection and test and getting installed into a new vehicle.


    I am guessing you mean a C4OF-AL carburetor assembly. The carburetor run dates I know for that model (so far) were 4DE, 4FB, 4FE, 4GA, 4JA, 4KB, 4KC, 4KD, 5AD, 5CA, and 5BB. Depending on the engine assembly date for the original engine in your car, tags dated 4KB, 4KC, or 4KD might have been possible. Carburetors dated 4KD were made in large numbers and is the largest count in my database I have collected over the years.

  • C6ZF-C Carburetor

    Based on the exact secondary throttle shaft assembly design and materials, primary shaft material, and the screws used for the choke plate the unit was probably originally made 6BD or later but before 6LC. (I have been collecting data on build changes over the production span of the suffix F and suffix C units.) It would be real interesting to know what the primary venturi assembly.