Ok, it looks like the diameter is 2 3/4", but that's rounding up. I can't find my caliper for some reason, but the circumference using a pipe gauge is 8.63309. The length measure out to what appears to be 50 27/32". I used two plumb weights to mark off dead center on the floor. Then measured the distance. Does that help any?
Edited by - markforsythe on 02/18/2011 16:55:37
Yeah, he was peeking at it the other day. When we talked on Tuesday, he said it brought it brought back some memories. He is now long retired and lives in New Hampshire, while I'm here in Texas. I'm sure he wouldn't mind chiming in, at least then I could talk to him more than once ever couple of months...
My original radiator support has the shapo of an "s" from left to right and is bent up on top so bad it actually dented the underside of the hood frame. I want to order a replacement support from NPD or Viginia Classic Mustang. I know the support is restamped for a base model and will need to recreate the correct holes in the correct places for everything that attaches and passes through it. I have mine diagramed out with the current holes and have compared it to pictures online and in manuals and found that I have many holes that should not be there. For instance, I have across the top front I have 6 3/16" holes for the wire loom retainers, and 4 additional ones, 2 on either side of the radiator hole. The fog light holes are on either side of the radiator hole and appear to measure 3/8" but they are not round nor are they flush with the metal (it appears when someone pulled the wires out they used a flat blade screw driver and a hammer). There are 2 1/4" holes for the horn wires, and 2 holes for the mounting bolts, and 2 additional for the alignment studs on the bracket. Next to these are a small 1/8" hole just inside (1/2"). In the center of the support are 4 5/8" holes for the hood latch support, and another at the bottom on the frame support. There a 4 hole in a square where the regulator should go, and towrd the driver side bottom of the support are 2 1 1/2" holes (air conditioner maybe?).
My question does anybody have the correct hole placement and sizes for the radiator support? Looking through the osborne books and body manual, I can see most of them. Or should I just not worry about it and just use what I get?
So, once again I had to fail and ask my dad about the build sheets. He's an old mustang team worker (William Forsythe)from Michigan. He told me to strip down the radiator support and coat the hell out of it with WD-40. The writing will stand out. He said police cars had special writing on the driver side. He doesn't know much about the San Jose operations, but also said that if engineering pulled a car, the roation would stay the same. Engineering would perform whatever modifications were needed for whatever purpose and the car would be reinsterted before the rolling line. Engineering cars would get a pink and blue build sheet. He said the blue were usually found taped to the back of the glove box. He also said if it was an engineering pull, there would be some handwritten initials on the build sheets next to certain boxes, showing that the modification was performed and checked off by engineering.
He also mentioned a static line sheet. It was a punch card that followed the cars down the line and was affixed to the radiator support with a screw. Each process punched the line code performed until the unit reached trim line, where it was pulled and bound to the steering wheel. At the end of the build the cards were collected and filed. Do you think these might actually still exist? He said he remembered a woman (thinks her name was Barbara) that had boxes of these cards in her office. I hope this helps someone...
I looked for a few years off and on at various years (65-67) and models. Then about 6 months before I bought mine I really started looking, almost to the point of obsession. I will not claim in any way to be an authority on K codes or Mustangs for that matter, but I did physically drive out and look at over 75 differnet cars in the course of about 6 months. Just looking at the pictures, and knowing about what the market is here in Texas, I would 35-38. It really does look in great shape, so it could even go higher than that here. I wouldn't offer over 40.
I know a lot of people don't like to talk money or prices or anything like that, but it doesn't bother me. I know what I paid for mine, and what time and money I have invested in it at this point. I know I will make back at least 3 times my current investment if I do want to sell it, I've been offered 4 times what I paid for it, and it is litterally in pieces.
I guess what it comes down to is what are you willing to buy it back for, and is he willing to sell it at that price?
Edited by - markforsythe on 02/09/2011 00:02:42
Quoted from zray on another forum...
GEAR HISTORY
CAM GEARS
S350 does not have the HUB STOP – you will need the cam washer
S372T replaced S350 – has HUB STOP molded in – this part was only produced briefly.
S406T replaced S372T – has HUB STOP molded in and uses 1 pc fuel eccentric.
S430T can be used with the later 2 piece fuel eccentric and a longer drive pin.
This is what I ordered...
C5ZZ-6511135-KT
I was wrong, the sender grommet was not the same. I must have something wrong with my wire, it moves freely throught the grommet in either direction, doesn't appear to be stripped any where on the wire, but that harness is getting replaced any way.
I just looked on mine... depressing, once again. The fuel sending unit lead wire is spliced just ahead of the left trunk hinge. The grommet is indeed a brake line grommet, but is does not have a part number around the edge. The inner seal was created using silicon caulk (much like every other hole I found in the trunk). This would have been the last factory harness left on the car.
Every body penetration I have seen on this kar so far, has had either silicon, tape, sometines old red rags stuffed through. Is it really that hard to replace it right the first time?
Edited by - markforsythe on 02/08/2011 14:49:56
I haven't found any particular type of how-to's on the forums. Just short of searching for something vague and sifting through the various threads, I haven;t been able to come with solutions for some problems unless I google it or ask someone here in town.
Would it be possible to start a how-to thread for various years? For instance, I want to strip down the paint from dash board of my 66 and while I like the efficiency of sand blasting, it can pit, scar and warp the metal. I have been using wire wheels or various sizes, shapes and coarsness to get it down to the shiny bare metal.
It would be nice to have various takes on how it was accomplished and what yielded the best results. Or coil spring compression, what works best? What did you use?
Would this benefit anyone else?
Just a thought for you other Kar lovers out there.
I just ordered the grommet kit from Scott Drake for my 66. Those grommets are the same. They are also the same as the grommet at the lower edge of the hood hinges.
The grommet kit has like 25 grommets for everything, seat hole covers, rear shock covers, fender to cowl access plugs, you name it. Got it from Glazier Nolan in PA. I also ordered the wiring assembly manual form them. I'm in the same boat as you, I have no electrical under the hood at all right now. The engine bay just got stripped, I coated it with Dupont Red Oxide, and then Dupont Semi Flat Engine Bay Paint. $11 a can from the local Dupont dealer here in San Antonio, but it does look pretty (9 cans later). I pulled the fenders, coil spring covers, radiator and everything off the front of the car. I cut off all of the wiring loom retainers (thus the need for the wiring assembly manual). I can get you pictures of all of the wiring harness tie down points as soon as the book comes in. I also have an extra set of wiring loom retainers that I ordered by mistake... I got one set from Tony Branda and the other from Virginia Classic Mustang. So far I have used 17 vendors getting parts for the Kar and I do shop around for the lowest price including shipping.
Wow Pete! You shed a lot of light on the Kar!! Now it begs the question, what the hell is this Kar? I did pull a factory (period correct) A/C from the car, but the wiring and drains were bastardized (16Gauge wire on the A/C power...). So, I'm pretty sure the factory didn't do that.
It sounds like it was originally ordered for A/C for then decided against? Then they wanted it again? I have found some other strange items on the car, but can;t find them in the body manuals. There is grommeted hole in the left side package tray next to the headliner, two holes in the right shock tower, just above the wiring retainer hole. Two holes forward of the gas tank on the trunk floor (punched 3/8" in diameter). 4 holes in the shock tower where the upper control goes, and 2 holes (1/2" diameter) punched above the heater blower motor in the firewall. Does anyone know what these holes would be for? I'm not positive, but the shock tower holes could be from a shelby UCA relocation? They are .5313" using a digital caliper. I doubt the Kar was ever at shelby, and someone probably did the holes themselves, but when I pulled the UCA's they were mounted in the top holes, it doesn't look like anything was ever in the bottom ones (no scuffs or crimps from the nuts).
I thought I was getting a good deal when I bought the Kar in September. Don't get me wrong, I love restoring it, but how do you put something back to how it came from the factory, when it came from the factory with things you don't understand. Maybe it would have been better if I hadn't found the sheets, and just did the restoration based on the evidence the car is presenting.
The information (name of the boxes) are the same, and yes the Codes are different. This was part of the initial question I had. Since there is a 3 week difference in the sheets, I am wondering if the order was changed during it's production run. Maybe the person who ordered it got paid that week and decided they could spend more money on more options?
I just thought it kind of strange that the sheets were that much different. From what I've learned so far, it looks like the paint was changed, the type code was changed, power steering was added, the springs and shocks were changed, the rearend was upgraded, the GT package was added, different tires were added, a decor group was added, air conditioner was deleted, radio was changed, something happened with the seat belts, the front windshield was tinted, the wheels were changed, the speed o gear was changed, gas was changed, stripes were added, gas cap was changed and something I can't make out (bottom row, third from the right) and in the remarks is BL.
Would someone really make all those changes to a car after initially ordering it? You could have bought a second car for the price of all the upgrades they got!!
From what I know about the car, since I've been tearing it apart, is it is a 66 Coupe. There is a K in the 5th digit of the VIN, The VIN is stamped on 3 aprons under the hood, both left side aprons, rear right apron. The radiator support has punched holes for the fog light, underdash and engine compartment harnesses for fog lights, D shaped hole for the fog light switch lowe left dash underneath. There is wear on the steering column and a hole were the rally pac collar and wiring cover would have gone. The front suspension has been replaced with a right side 67 setup (possible accident, or what they had in the front yard at the time). There are bondo holes on the fenders where the gt badges should be, and three holes aroud the 289 upper fender area. The interior was originaaly blue and white pony, but was replaced with aqua from a 65 at some point (probably to match exterior).
There are holes in the floor pan hump where the console should have been, but was filled in with silicone. The door lights were replaced with plywood, bondo, and a LOT of paint. It had disk brakes at one time, the master cylinder, splashguards and discs were in a box in the trunk when I got it. The gas cap was replaced with a 65 cap. The leaf springs are 5 leaf, looks factory, can't tell. it had probably the original Koni shocks on it, I just pulled them out, Right Rear was a monroe.
I started stripping down the hood and tail light panel, the colors are in this order, steel - dark gray primer - Wimbledon WHite - Red Oxide - Dark Gray Primer - Wimbledon White - light gray primer - White? (Very bright white color) - red oxide - light gray primer - turqouise. Quite a few repaints, toward the center of the hood, stone guard, front valance, roof, trunklid, tail panel, and rear valance is a blue srtipe (2) in between the first coat of wimbledon white and red oxide. The blue matched the stripe on the front fender and door.
If this helps any one decipher the codes on the build sheets, I'll be glad to post pictures of any part of the car you need. It is taken apart as of now, so just about everything is accessible.
I never really thought of how big of a pain in the butt it is to scan something in color. Here are scanned and converted images of the two build sheets.
[Blocked Image: http://www.forsythemedia.com/images/BuildSheets.jpg]
I tried to enhance the picture quality of the pink one make it legible, it is actually very dark.
I'll try and get the build sheets scanned and posted as soon as possible. The Pink one, on the lower left corner says:
MAT CONT
JUL 1 65 AAD 8502-S
It looks like there may have been a corbon sheet on top as there are smudges, light grey markthroughs, handwritten initials, and cirles around various boxes.
I am reproducing it electronically and can e-mail that to you if you would like.
I checked out your blog and, wow, you have a lot of information on there, I hope that my sheets can add to your data collection.
On another note, the engine in the Kar right now is a 5.0HO from an 83 Mustang. I found a correctly dated HiPo block in Arlington, TX a few months back. I was told in was pulled from a 66 way back in the day and the guy that pulled it said he was told by the original owner, that the block was blown. He also said the block was original, never reworked, with under 10K miles on it. The serial is 6R09K117288, dated 11L5. It actually had a blown head gasket, and sure enough, the bore, using a digital caliper is 3.9982. Very light surface rust on the walls, but other than that, it looks perfect. I don't know if anyone is looking for this engine, but I would gladly trade it if ANYONE could find mine (6R07K117304).
I'm gonna post some other stuff about the gauges on the car (none of the partnumbers match the ones in the MPC or any catalog I have. I have a 45 year old Frankenstien, that is slowly coming back to factory condition, very slowly.
Thanks for the quick reply Fred, I had heard that they delayed during manufacturing, but that never crossed my mind.
I guess that would explain why there are 2 build sheets then. I'm trying to recreate them so I can read all of the little words in the boxes. Between the 2 of them I think I can make out just about everything. Does anyone know if they can be reprinted? I have read in a few places that Ford can and will do it for free but it takes quite a few months to get the sheet back. Plus being a pre-67 Kar, it looks like I would have to send them the sheets I have in order for them to create a new one.
The only thing I have had recreated for the Kar so far is the door plate, and Marti was a big help with that. I have the original sales order for it, and Marti was kind enough to take the time explain what each item on the sheet was, and what they all meant on the door plate. Great bunch of folks.
So, I have a 1966 San Jose Kar, and have been tearing it down, hoping in the odd chance that I would find the Build Sheet. I pulled the rear seat, instrument cluster, front seats, carpet, headliner, door panels...nothing. After pulling the dash pad, there it was, laying on the silver blue metal, driver side staring at me. Affixed securely with a piece of yellowish black masking tape, and rolled up nice and neatly.
As I carefully removed the tape, two thin and crumbling pieces of perforated printer paper came free. The first piece, a yellowish white piece about 8 inches long, 4 inches tall, contains everything I was hoping to find: Serial Number, Scheduled Build Date, Options... you name it. ...this is where I am totally perplexed!
The second one, that is the same size, but pinkish gray in color, contains most of the same information. Some info is marked out and initialed, and some items have changed.
The serial number is the same (6R07K117304) The Type Order is changed from 5 to 1. Region District is 75 (I can't find that listed anywhere, it stops at 74). Axle went from 4 1 to 4 H. Under Trans/IGN Exhaust/GT GROUP/REFLECTOR on the yellow one it is BLANK, on the Pink one it says 6. ENG. TRANS. is listed as K 6 on both.
The most interesting part of the two sheets is the SCHED DATE box. On the Yellow/White one it says 07K, on the Pinkish one it says 30K.
Is it possible the car stopped in production and held for almost a month? Or maybe the order was changed during production? I can't find any information on this pink build sheet, or why the information would differ. If anyone has any knowledge, or hell even speculation, I would greatly appreciate your input.
According to my build sheet the Drive Shaft on a 66 Hipo Mustang with a C4 (Trans 6) was H.
I have a 1966 K Code with a C-4. I recently asked the older guys here at a local Ford Dealer what the C Servo was that is on my Transmission, and he had to call some guys to look it up. They still didn't know exactly what it was or the difference in the servo. They told me to just replace it with any servo I could find new, as it would not make that much difference.
I'm glad I didn't listen to them. I am new to the HIPO and still learning, what the differences are and what they do. You guys have been a wealth of knowledge.
I do have a question in all of this though. I know my kar is 45 years old , and I know that all kinds of weekend mechanics have touched this car over the years. The valve body in the C-4 Has a C8 date stamp, and the hoses have been replaced with rubber, and tightly secured with bialing wire, duct tape, zip ties, you name it. The original tag on the servo is gone, so how do I identify the transmission and its origin, how it is now?
I recently purchased a 1966 GT K Code Coupe from a man in Northeast Texas. I was unaware at the time of the GT Package, and wasn't sure until I actually started tearing the car apart that it was a GT Package car. I have not taken many pictures of it yet, and finally got it up off the ground yesterday, so I could start on the underbody. But none the less, all of the GT indicators are there, fog light holes, rally pack ring on the steering column, GT badge holes on the fender (body fillered over).
I should have some pictures in the upcoming weeks of the progress, as I am anticipating a 4 year restoration. Thanks for any advice you guys can give me, and oh yeah, the VIN is 6R07K117304. Originally Wimbledon White, Blue/White Pony, Hazards, and YES!!!... factory C4, with power steering and 3.89 Limited Slip. Somebody ordered a HIPO with PS!!
